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[–]ShuggatyBuggaty 160 points161 points  (29 children)

It blows my mind that she was just 12. That’s, what, a 7th grader? My niece is 12 and wanted a charm bracelet and giant gummy bear for Christmas. I cannot imagine how traumatizing it would be to have this happen at such a young age.

[–]tough-tornado-roger 11 points12 points  (1 child)

My cousin and 12 and would have thought those gift were for babies. My cousin is in such a rush to grow up but she's lame. Your cousin sounds better.

[–]StannisBaratheon_AMA 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My neice is the same. Shes at that age where she thinks being an adult means beings snotty so she's just a chore to be around. Her two brothers (one older one younger ) act normal and think having fun is fun. Idk. I just avoid her but then i feel like an asshole

[–]Mega24 600 points601 points  (257 children)

People don't seem to understand that in those times, speaking up about anything a person in power did, meant the complete death of your career in Hollywood. Also, people asking why didn't the guardian reported to the police, Eliza never told what happened to anyone until later, she didn't know about it, but knew that this Joel Kramer was up to something from his behavior.

[–]xevrai 246 points247 points  (125 children)

I think most of it stems from people being completely unable to relate to the entertainment industry. People relate to things in their own world, where if something were to happen to them, they're free to report it to HR or file a police report and go back to their job the next day . But it's not the same thing...

Imagine your boss sexually assaults you in some manner. If you report it to anybody (HR, police, ethics whatever), not only will you lose your job, you will never work in the industry again in any capacity. You will likely lose your home, most of what you own, and have to start all over again in a new town, new career, new everything. Not only all of that, but you'll very likely only hope to make a fraction of what you're currently making for the foreseeable future. How easy of a decision is it now?

[–]acore8694 309 points310 points  (50 children)

I work in law and I reported a fellow attorney for racist comments. It killed my career at that firm. The woman who made the comments had less meaningful repercussions because she was more senior and trusted by the partners.

It’s really a tough call in every industry even when it’s not sexual assault. People who criticize these women lack empathy and fail to consider the complexities of these situations.

[–]bloozchicken 58 points59 points  (4 children)

HR exists to protect the company not the employees.

[–]acore8694 21 points22 points  (2 children)

And I’d venture to guess the LA police department and the Hollywood industry are not too dissimilar

[–]bloozchicken 15 points16 points  (0 children)

People are afraid to come forward because often coming forward doesn’t actually help the victim, it may make it easier for the next victim to have a case, but it’s usually just stress and anguish.

[–]Vio_ 13 points14 points  (0 children)

James Ellroy's entire writing career are about LAPD being wholly corrupted by Hollywood and acting as their enforcers and covering up whatever scandal happened.

Hilariously enough, it co-starred Kevin Spacy.

[–]dust4ngel 8 points9 points  (0 children)

just listen to their title: "human resources." if you're looking for a phrase psychopaths would use to refer to people, it would be this.

[–]Goombill 56 points57 points  (13 children)

And I know where I work, the legal field is really tightly knit too. If you piss off the wrong partner, you won't just burn a bridge at your firm, you could be shut out of most of the firms in the city.

[–]kaboomzz- 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Isn't that everywhere? That's why it's so rare to see an attorney disbarred. Anyone that helped the process risks alienating themselves from their peers who now see them as a threat.

[–]notedgarfigaro 3 points4 points  (0 children)

uh, it's not rare to see an attorney get disbarred.

[–]YoMamaIsSoFatThat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"According to the American Bar Association, 1,046 lawyers were disbarred nationally in 2011, or about 0.08% of the roughly 1.27 million practicing lawyers. That same year, 674 petitions for reinstatement were filed, while 67 were granted."

"In 2015, the state bar received 15,796 new complaints against California lawyers,” the report said. “The office of the chief trial counsel, the state bar's prosecutorial arm, filed disciplinary charges or stipulations to discipline in 558 cases. Formal discipline was imposed in 990 cases, resulting in the disbarment or suspension of 421 lawyers."

[–]jognu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for what you did man. I hope you are doing well.

[–]TheOneTrueWinner 2 points3 points  (18 children)

Racist comments aren't illegal...

[–]ibelievenangel 43 points44 points  (2 children)

Not to mention so many people go to the police and nothing comes from it. Some people can do all the right things and still nothing is done. That’s the terrifying part. We’re told all our lives if something happens to go to the police, report it, it’ll be taken care of, but that’s just not the case sometimes.

[–]xevrai 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Yea, I was just speaking in terms if the allegations were believed. If the entity you report to doesn't believe you, you just tossed away everything mentioned above for absolutely nothing.

[–]sophers2008 18 points19 points  (5 children)

I work in the food industry and once reported a co-worker for harrasment. I was fired with two weeks. And that employee never recieved even the slightest reprimand. I experienced sexual harrasment at my next job and refused to report because in this male dominated industry, reporting usually just means firing.

[–]ApollosCrow 16 points17 points  (0 children)

This. It's not just "the entertainment industry", it's endemic in culture as a whole.

The trick now is to address this very real problem and protect people who speak out, while also trying not to alienate half the country (men). Because I think even "good" men, who consider themselves thoughtful and informed and "woke", are starting to feel like they're on unstable footing in this climate.

This is a very necessary moment for our culture to have, and I hope it yields real change. I also want to make sure we're holding on to our shared humanity and clearly distinguishing between systemic problems and individual agency. Rather than feel unsure or targeted, men should feel like this is their fight too, it's for their daughters and mothers and partners and friends. Plus, any fight for equality is ultimately good for the whole of democracy.

[–]francis2559 57 points58 points  (64 children)

My Dad is convinced that somehow this is so overblown that "you can't even pat a girl on the back at work anymore without worrying about being arrested" while at the same time saying "these women in Hollywood deserve it for being in so much sexual immorality. Those movies are so corrupt." I can't even. The #metoo thing has him really really bothered.

[–]sexrobot_sexrobot 14 points15 points  (0 children)

The #metoo thing has him really really bothered.

If reddit is any indication it has a lot of guys bothered. There seems to be a real fear that power is being shifted from men to women. If that means less child rapes, I'm all for it.

[–]ApollosCrow 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I've come to understand something about things like this. It's not simply a regressive or bigoted mindset that prevents the empathy to understand social justice issues, whether it's #metoo or BLM or gay marriage. It's also some unconscious feeling of guilt and targeting, and that manifests as defensiveness, dismissiveness, and division.

People think that a critique of, for example, patriarchy, is also an attack on men. So if you're a man, you're the bad guy. Obviously if that's the interpretation, it's no surprise that there is such a backlash. You can spend all day trying to explain historical context, social dynamics, and principles of justice - all they know is that you're making them feel bad, so they're going to hit back.

I was a teenager in the 90s and a young adult in the 2000s, back when progressive values were really not in question. There was always the conservative pushback, but "mainstream" culture seemed to embrace concepts like diversity and equality, and to recognize these as foundational American ideas.

As I developed my own identity, knowledge of history, and critique of the world around me, it was not difficult to see patterns of conflict and oppression that have been ingrained in civilization from its beginning. I, a white, straight, male, had no trouble at all understanding how the system fucked some people more than others, and I learned not to internalize this knowledge as some kind of personal guilt, but to instead lend my energy to making it better.

I don't feel like I'm especially smart or noble for doing this, and lately I've been really racking my brain to figure out what creates that different train of thought from the "conservative" reactionary view, which seems to lean so easily into prejudice, scapegoating, victim blaming, etc.

[–]CorvidaeSF 11 points12 points  (14 children)

Lol, see now I read that and think, "Literally patting a woman on the back is usually a really patronizing gesture. No it's not really an arrestable offense, but...just fucking don't, man."

[–]rigby__ 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I agree; don't. To your other point however, is it patronizing? It's not patronizing when guys do it to guys.

[–]CorvidaeSF 19 points20 points  (1 child)

I guess there's probably a lot nuance and context for every situation. I've worked closely with guys whom I also consider friends and have no problem with general physical contact on back/shoulders/arms with them. But if some boss whom I view more as a superior and rarely have contact with came round my desk and was like, "attagirl" out of nowhere, I'd be weirded out.

[–]rigby__ 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Oh, yeah. That is offside

[–]OMGWTFLULZ 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I'm a little conflicted about the #MeToo thing as well. I think its a damn shame that this has happened but on the same hand "power structures" or not... A lot of people let this go on and some actively participated. People like Meryl Streep who actively applauded Roman Polanski, and knew that Weinstein was out there raping women and just let it happen "cuz my money". It's gross.

Now they wan't to posture and talk about how bad the men in hollywood are (and lets be real... making the push to ALL MEN). It's I think that #TimesUp is an important movement on one hand. Who wants this shit to continue? On the other hand it seems like a lot of vapid posturing and virtue signalling on the part of a lot of these people who knew this was going on for years and did nothing about it.

I hope those women who were legitimately harmed by this find justice. I have very little sympathy for those who played along though and are now crying into their millions of dollars because they gave a blowjob for the very same dollars they are blowing their noses with.

[–]possibleendearment 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As a slightly socially awkward male I'm more comfortable giving guys a hug than women. Less chance of misinterpreted sexual assault.

[–]sexrobot_sexrobot 10 points11 points  (1 child)

The fact that she had a stunt 'mishap' later is scary. He could've been telling her that he can kill her whenever he wants so she better shut up.

[–]OldRemnant 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In her original statement she talks about him threatening her to keep her silence. And then that happened to back up his threat.

[–]GoAvs14 13 points14 points  (0 children)

If doing what was right was easy, we wouldn't have this problem

[–]OMGWTFLULZ 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Oh... Well I guess we will all just sit around then and watch a little girl get molested... Wouldn't want to lose my job or anything.

Seriously WTF?

[–]ericshin8282 21 points22 points  (17 children)

why didnt the guardian go to the police?

[–]xienze 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Better question, why did the guardian leave her alone with a 36 year man in the first place?

[–]vvyn 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Does nobody read anymore? Eliza stated the guy earned her parents trust enough to allow her alone with him.

The legal guardian is only hired to look after her at the set. She explains it in her letter that even if people were watching, it was difficult to separate her from the guy because of the nature of the work.

[–]LeMot-Juste 3 points4 points  (14 children)

Because she would then lose her job, not just on this film but for the entire Hollywood community. Read her letter.

[–]CC_TA2 9 points10 points  (11 children)

I guess that makes her inaction ok then

[–]LeMot-Juste 19 points20 points  (10 children)

She did act. She reported Kramer. People shrugged.

[–]CC_TA2 4 points5 points  (9 children)

Police people?

[–]LeMot-Juste 1 point2 points  (8 children)

And what could the cops do, exactly?

[–]sexrobot_sexrobot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Probably do nothing. But at least there'd be a public record. Jerry Sandusky wasn't a one off. The systemic abuse of children and subsequent cover up happens in so many places.

[–]NoodlersNightshade 7 points8 points  (6 children)

The cops never, ever arrest anyone for sexually assaulting 12 year olds. Ever.

[–]scalm 12 points13 points  (4 children)

knew that this Joel Kramer was up to something from his behavior

So just to be clear, she witnessed nothing, but thought he was creepy so she is 'backing the claim'?

[–]LeMot-Juste 28 points29 points  (3 children)

She lays it all out there, did you read her words?

The set was extremely sexually charged with Eliza being one of the few females around. They called her "jailbait" for a laugh, ha ha. Kramer was the most hands on for Eliza, being the stunt coordinator, and the most vocally misogynistic. His behavior was shocking and horrible. The adult guardian DID complain and was waved off.

[–]chocki305 4 points5 points  (10 children)

So it is ok to ignore horrible crimes until you get your money, and only then report them?

No. Anyone who kept quite for the good of their career, made that choice. I'm not saying let these thingw go unpunished.. but let's share the blame equally for actions taken.

How many others have been abused since 1994 because no one said anything (because they wanted their career)?

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Read the article. They reported him but nothing was done.

[–]signos_de_admiracion 4 points5 points  (2 children)

People don't seem to understand that in those times, speaking up about anything a person in power did, meant the complete death of your career in Hollywood

That has nothing to do with it. Most assault and molestation victims are hurt by people they know. Family friends, relatives, and people they're around all of the time. People their parents trust to be alone with their kid.

These crimes go unreported for a bunch of reasons, but "it'll kill my Hollywood career" isn't likely one of them. In fact, in her letter she talks about how she didn't understand the power dynamics involved until much later in her life.

So please stop making shit up.

[–]ApollosCrow 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Wait, you don't think women all over the world are silent to protect their livelihoods? What?

[–]The_DarkOne 309 points310 points  (31 children)

I said this in the other thread, I will say it again...

Regardless of the molestation charge, both parties seem to agree on the initial story that they were out for a night on the town. What 36 year old guy takes a 12 year old girl out for sushi, then a swim in the pool. Thats kind of a huge red flag.

Where were her parents/guardian when this guy came over to pick her up, or even ask to do this? Even if nothing else happened, a 36 year old guy taking a 12 year old out for a date is as creepy as it gets.

[–]Blunt-as-a-cunt 223 points224 points  (24 children)

I was skiing years ago when I was a teen (I'm a lad) - my parents wanted to go to dinner while I wanted to carry on skiing.

A guy we had met in the resort said its fine and he'll look after me for a couple of hours

He didn't molest me, we just went skiing for a couple of hours. He was a nice guy. These people exist. Shame is that now people would point the finger very quickly.

Humanity is fucking sad at the moment

[–]The_DarkOne 104 points105 points  (17 children)

There's a world of difference between watching over someone at a ski resort for a few hours, and an adult male picking up and taking a 12 year old out for a date. Seriously, what guy that age do you know who plans his weekend around a night on the town with a little girl. I'm around that age and I cant imagine a situation where I would want to take a little girl out for dinner and then a late night swim. It gives me the weirdos just thinking about it. You arent making and apples to apples comparison.

[–]makita69 69 points70 points  (5 children)

(I'm not defending this dude because I believe Eliza has no reason to lie)

when you're in showbiz it is common to have a kid in the cast, and they kind of get treated like anyone else. people look out for young actors and try and show them the ropes. it is not uncommon for kids to join cast parties etc, and this dude claims he was not alone with her (which sounds like bs)

[–]Blunt-as-a-cunt 22 points23 points  (8 children)

I know it's not strictly the same, but the parents putting their trust into someone isn't a character fault.

[–]The_DarkOne 13 points14 points  (6 children)

On that we agree, and I think we do on most of what you are saying. What I take specific notice to in this event is that the guy was exhibiting behavior toward a 12 year old that is typical of dating/courting. Its not like this was some kind of a trip to Disneyland he was sponsoring, it was mimicking the behavior of an adult male and female on a date, and thats straight up weird. Any parent or guardian who doesnt recognize that is totally incompetent.

[–]Blunt-as-a-cunt 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I doubt any predator would give too much detail

"I'll look after her for a couple of hours for you guys, a few of us are heading to my place, I have a pool and here's my address" would sound innocent enough to me

[–]kragnor 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I mean, we need to take into account the claim that there were others present anyway.

If there were, it was likely a cast or crew party and that makes it less odd considering how common it is for those types of get togethers.

I still think the ski resort thing is weirder though. There is a big difference between co-worker and random guy at a ski resort.

[–]Blunt-as-a-cunt 3 points4 points  (3 children)

He wasn’t random in the resort - he’d been part of the group of beginners we were in and had shown himself to be a nice guy. Ultimately it may have been a facade, but that’s true of anybody you care to scrutinise until you have empirical proof

[–]kragnor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Ah okay. I mean, it is still a random person.

Like, your connection with the man was much less than that of a co-worker for more than 6 months time.

[–]Blunt-as-a-cunt 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Oh absolutely - I do see what you mean

Fact is you never know somebody 100% and to trust nobody as a result is more than throwing the baby out with the bath water, it’s downright paranoid. Society is allowing itself to be more paranoid and too many people are falling for it.

[–]kragnor 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Except that the claim is there were other people in the group. It wasn't a date and what you fail to realize is that they were co-workers. They spent a great deal of time working together and therefore could have been friendly enough to do things like that.

Im not saying this to, idk, defend the guy, but i think you need to take into account that it is something that happens between co-workers on a regular basis, regardless of age, especially within the entertainment business where children become such big stars and spend so much time on set.

And I'd argue that the whole ski resort thing above is much more odd. The person had no relation to the child in that scenario and could have easily asked her to come back to his room or something for hot cocoa or what have you.

I'm sorry that you seem so jaded over the idea that adults can have normal relationships with children and do things, like go to dinner, with someone they worked with for a long span of time.

Only time and evidence will tell us what actually happened here.

[–]ThisIsTheMilos 9 points10 points  (0 children)

His response was posted yesterday, he said there were ~5 people out that night celebrating, he wasn't ever alone with her, and that her story isn't true.

[–]Shredzy83 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All things aside I totally agree with you. Its just a sad state of affairs. There are still good, normal people who do have the best interests of children around them in mind. In no way is this a commentary to Eliza's words, just in general

[–]Ganthid 27 points28 points  (0 children)

I think this probably happened like Dushku said, but I disagree with your implication that any man taking a 12 year old around a city is automatically suspect.

[–]Rad_Spencer 12 points13 points  (0 children)

True. If I'm buying sushi for a 12 year old in the 90's, I'm trying to bang them.

These days, it just means I'm at Kroger and those things need to eat every other day.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't get that one, what parents let a 12 year old be taken out by some 30 something dude to a restaurant.

[–]badillustrations 36 points37 points  (2 children)

This article covers a lot of the on set concerns about the stunt coordinate being "handsy", but not the things happened offset like her basically dried humped by the guy in a hotel room. I don't understand how that situation happened.

I was her legal guardian and took seriously my need to have her in my sight at all times, which was often difficult to do. I was on the True Lies set for 3 weeks

Did she only have a legal guardian for a short time on the set? Did people leave her alone in a hotel room for some reason? Why was it difficult to keep an eye on her? Did the guardian have a bunch of other jobs? I feel like if a child actor is on set there should be a person there that is pretty much dedicated to watching and caring for them. Even teenagers need full-time protection.

[–]otra_gringa 70 points71 points  (1 child)

Her parents let her go to the stunt crew's hotel to go swimming and then for sushi. It happened in his hotel. She didn't tell her guardian the full extent until years later.

The day after her guardian confronted him about what she did know, Eliza's ribs were coincidentally broken in a stunt where he was responsible for her safety.

[–]notmybloatedsac 257 points258 points  (91 children)

I get it she was 12 and couldn't understand what to do...why didn't her legal guardian or any other adults contact the police? did they want to make a buck off her so bad..pretty sure this will get a lot of negative comments but Jesus, someone needs to stand up for what is right..

[–]LefthandedLunatic 212 points213 points  (7 children)

I found this

When she later confided to an adult female friend about what had happened, the friend confronted Kramer and then later that day she writes, “by no small coincidence,” she was injured from a stunt-gone-wrong, suffering broken ribs. “Whereas he was supposed to be my protector, he was my abuser,” Dushku continued.

[–]FreeGums 82 points83 points  (3 children)

Same reason why most victims stay quiet. They dont want the attention and live in fear of future opportunities being taken away. Her being an young actress may never get her fame if she had called out the perpetrator. Same thing that happened to Feldman

[–]vvyn 40 points41 points  (1 child)

To be fair, it's not just fame or career. She is 12 after all. But you need some emotional and mental strength to face and accept that head on at a young age. The shame alone can prevent someone from talking about it. It is confusing and over time traumatizing. It takes a lot of courage to speak about it in such detail because it's a difficult thing to admit, let alone share to the public. It makes sense why some of these stories come out when victims are a lot older in life, especially when they now have young loved ones they'd want to protect. It's one thing to suffer in silence. It's another to also experience it happen to others you care about.

[–]GretaTheBeeotch[S] 102 points103 points  (29 children)

She was also raised a strict Mormon, and it is......unlikely.....that she knew enough about what the hell had just happened to her to succinctly describe it. Her Mom said it was "many years later" before she fully understood the extent of the assault. But hey, if you teach children about sex, you're encouraging them to engage in it outside of marriage, and NOTHING could be worse than that : /

[–]Futuramawe 58 points59 points  (21 children)

If she's a strict 12 year old Mormon she would already be discussing her masturbation habits with her bishop.

[–]GretaTheBeeotch[S] 25 points26 points  (6 children)

HA yes I have some Mormon family members, that crap gave my Dad the heebies and he bailed as soon as he could

[–]parachutewoman 74 points75 points  (0 children)

The invasive sexual interviews sets up young girls like Eliza to be victims because they think it is normal for adults who n positions of authority to act sexual. It sets them doubly up to be victims because they are also taught that whatever happens is their fault.

Source, was Mormon teen girl.

[–]balmergrl 15 points16 points  (0 children)

There are lots of stories about the skeevy practice of “interviews” over at r/exmormon, at best grossly inappropriate and rife for abuse.

[–]abscae 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Jesus Christ, that seems horrendously unbelievable...sad that it's true.

[–]Futuramawe 28 points29 points  (2 children)

I see I'm getting downvoted for telling people truths they don't want to hear.

If you people don't believe me, just head on over to /r/exmormon and ask them for yourselves!

[–]sw04ca 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Dude, you're criticizing a religion. Sure some people will downvote you, but in the end your post will end up healthily positive, no matter what you say. That's how reddit works.

[–]Nietzsch_avg_Jungman 4 points5 points  (8 children)

Former Mormon here no one ever asked me about masturbation. I had 3 different bishops but I get that some people have different experiences.

[–]Futuramawe 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Male or female? Go on over to /r/exmormon and ask them

[–]otra_gringa 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm ex-Mormon and this was not a common question in our church. It would have been considered inappropriate. Our area's not particularly conservative though.

[–]Nietzsch_avg_Jungman 13 points14 points  (6 children)

No "strict Mormon" is an actor... Also Mormon's aren't southern baptists, we learn about sex in public school.

[–]parachutewoman 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Not in Utah.

[–]Nietzsch_avg_Jungman 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Yep in Utah. We learn both about contraceptives and abstinence.

[–]parachutewoman 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Not since 2012. C'mon. This is a state that fires teachers for showing state-approved art cards to students.


[–]Nietzsch_avg_Jungman 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Google sex Ed in Utah or go to utah.gov and look at it. Either it changed in the last 5 years ( looks like it's gonna go online soon) it this was never implemented in 2012

[–]parachutewoman 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Here are the rules. They are not allowed to discuss actual sex Ed at any time in any classroom.

1) The following may not be taught in Utah public schools through the use of instructional materials, direct instruction, or online instruction:

(a) the intricacies of intercourse, sexual stimulation or erotic behavior;

(b) the advocacy of premarital or extramarital sexual activity; or

(c) the advocacy or encouragement of the use of contraceptive methods or devices.

(2) Educators are responsible to teach the values and information identified under Subsection 53A-13-101(4).

(3) Utah educators shall follow all provisions of federal and state law including the parental notification and prior written parental consent requirements described in Sections 76-7-322 and 76-7-323 when teaching any aspect of human sexuality.

(4) While human sexuality instruction and related topics are most likely to take place in such courses as health education, health occupations, human biology, physiology, parenting, adult roles, psychology, sociology, child development, and biology, this rule R277-474 applies to any course or class in which these topics are the focus of discussion.

[–]FourteenFour 20 points21 points  (0 children)

One word : Polanski

even when they knew they did nothing and stood behind the idea of doing nothing

[–]Oryx 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Her mother said that she didn't completely reveal what happened to her until long after the fact. They knew something happened, but not exactly what. But yeah. I don't get why they didn't pursue it at that point instead of 30 years later.

[–]HandmeMOREchocolate 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I was under the impression after reading a comment by her mother that she didn't tell her family the full story of what happened until years later..

[–]Numlocks 108 points109 points  (17 children)

Man that /r/movies thread was a dumpster fire of basically saying it was Elizas fault for not going to the police. Calling her liar etc. She was a kid! Blame her parents and the "legal guardian" for not doing anything.

[–]Dontshoottherabbit 125 points126 points  (6 children)

Or dear I say it, blame the perpetrator? I don’t see how anyone but the person who did this should hold any blame whatsoever. Could the parents or legal guardian done things better, yes. Are they to blame, hell no.

[–]Numlocks 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Yes absolutely blame the pedophile who did this. Hollywood is full of secret pedophiles and child actors are not safe. But the people who were supposed to be responsible for 12 year old Eliza's safety failed and there should be some blame there.

[–]Dontshoottherabbit 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Except from what I read about this situation her mother was also groomed by the guy. A person in authority lead her to believe that they were in a safe environment and gained her trust for the sole purpose of taking advantage of her daughter. People who do this kind of things are professionals.

[–]VegasKL 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Or dear I say it, blame the perpetrator?

How dare you! I don't blame Dahmer for eating people, if they didn't want to be ate, they wouldn't have made themselves so tasty.


Blaming the victim really is absurd when you look at it like that.

[–]vvyn 30 points31 points  (3 children)

The legal guardian didn't know about the hotel incident until later. Unfortunately, the inappropriate behavior she did witness doesn't hold much water to go as far as reporting it to the police. But if she says, it was observed by others on the set, more people would be able to corroborate the story. She did report it to someone at the very least which is above than not doing anything. Her mom also admits she didn't know the full extent when she was told. Both of them regret not doing enough for Eliza.

[–]Numlocks 12 points13 points  (2 children)

It says the guardian reported the incident to "someone on set" and was met with blank stares and a sense that everyone already knew what he was doing. She says others also tried to keep him away from Eliza but failed. So they just gave up?

I understand when a victim of sexual assault is afraid to report it. Especially a child. I wouldn't blame them. But she did tell someone. She told her guardian who should have done more.

[–]serviceslave 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Teachers have a legal responsibility to inform the proper authorities about any abuse of their students. If a young student tells their teacher they were raped by the principle, and the teacher does not tell the police for fear of losing their job, that teacher will be criminally charged for some type of negligence.

The same must happen in these situations, no exception.

[–]vvyn 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I know it's an enraging thing for adults in Eliza's life to have failed her. But even if we hypothesize what the legal guardian could've done, it can't change things. The abuse already happened. No point in pointing fingers at her or her parents, because at the end of the day that doesn't help heal the trauma. It doesn't solve anything burdening these people further.

[–]William_T_Wanker 41 points42 points  (0 children)

this is reddit; when a man makes an accusation of abuse/pedophila everyone champions them 100%, but when a woman does it's always "We need to hear both sides before ruining a career/was she asking for it/reeeeeee it's her fault"

[–]ycnz 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Yeah, 12 year olds need to start taking responsibility! She was probably leading him on, right? (Unfortunately in this day and age, I do actually need to leave a /s here)

[–]Dr_Pepper_spray 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I don't know what it is with r/movies, but they strike me as people who would be very comfortable in r/t_d and the now closed incels.

edit: I should say it's really a particular strain of r/movies goer. They obviously aren't all bad.

[–]mapleQ 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I didn't get a chance to share this in the original thread so I want to share it here.

I got a chance to briefly meet her at a comic con in Reno a few years ago. I knew I wanted to get a picture, but I didn't want another one of those cookie cutter pictures. So when I went up to her I asked her to put me in a headlock. At first both her and the camerawoman misunderstood and thought I wanted to do it to her. After clearing it up, they both laughed and the camerawoman said "good, I was about to lunge at you and take you down."

Other than the little misunderstanding she was honestly a very sweet person and didn't give off any of the personality she had in buffy or bring it on, and although I'm happy that this incident with Kramer didn't bring her down as a person it still saddens me to see that someone who turned out as nice as she is have to deal with something like this when she was so young.

[–]Planeis 149 points150 points  (46 children)

The R/movies thread on this is a mess.

Many just knee jerk not believing her. Why? If she was gonna make something up, why this story and why this guy?

Then other people basically saying “I’ve given it some thought, and I believe her.” With inevitable replies about “Whaaaat. There’s no PROOF. You need a court of law for that!”

Nah man. See this ain’t a court. And we aren’t his boss. We aren’t doing anything to him. All were saying is, we heard her story. We heard his weird denial. And we are choosing her.

[–]ycnz 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Yeah. It's an accusation at this point. Nobody goes to jail for that.

We should, however, investigate to the best of our abilities. By we, I mean the police, not reddit.

[–]JackOCat 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Investigate what? These type of crimes leave little evidence right after they occur let alone now.

The calling out of powerful men like this is problematic... however the culture which makes police and courts hostile to sexual assault victims is more problematic.

We live in a problematic world and it ain't going away.

[–]adoptinglilkits 41 points42 points  (15 children)

It gets weirder when people basically go:

Didn't report then? If you have no proof now you shouldn't be making accusations and ruin their life. Aka. shut up and keep your story to yourself

In their crusade against false rape accusations they don't care perpetrators get immunity even outside of never seeing legal reperussions, and don't care about how their victims are marginalized even further.

[–]The_Bravinator 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Never mind how the Roy Moore accuser finally came forward only to have her house suspiciously burn down, add the Trump accusers withdrew due to the volume of death threats, reminding victims everywhere of the perils of attempting justice. :(

[–]Planeis 15 points16 points  (1 child)

If it was something minor, like say an adult being slapped on the ass, maaaaaybe you could argue it’s not worth bringing up 20+ years later.

But rape? Basically rape of a child? Yea go ahead and bring that up

[–]adoptinglilkits 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Person slaps another person on the ass without consent or god forbid, escalates their behavior? If you speak up suddenly this crowd will turn on you for not doing your moral responsibility and speaking up about it. Thus pinning the blame on you because you 'allowed' the perpetrator to harm someone else.

Speak up about it alone and you're crucified for 'ruining his life'

[–]ShockingBlue42 30 points31 points  (0 children)

The same people who promote rape culture are the ones who say it doesn't exist. They are like fish who are unaware of the water they swim in. Gaslighting is the main tool used, trying to force the world to ignore what is plainly visible by anyone who is paying attention.

[–]TheOneTrueWinner 0 points1 point  (10 children)

If there's no evidence you can't fucking tell a perpetrator from someone falsely accused, why can't you understand that? It's not that perpetrators are getting a pass it's that we are presuming innocence.

[–]azriel777 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your getting downvoted by the witchhunt brigade for telling the truth.

[–]adoptinglilkits 5 points6 points  (8 children)

If there's no evidence you can't fucking tell a perpetrator from someone falsely accused, why can't you understand that?

And your solution to this is to tell victims to shut up and keep their stories of what happened to them to themselves?

So their perpetrators will never see legal repercussions, and their victims can't speak out about them either. They're getting a pass.

[–]LordFluffy 17 points18 points  (2 children)

There's a difference in saying "I find this claim to be credible and will act personally under the assumption that it is" and "I think there is sufficient evidence to send this guy to jail".

The former works on a number of levels, not the least of which is choosing which films you'll support and which you won't, as well as using it as a launching board for discussion and working to change culture and behavior, both one's own and that of those in your sphere of influence. The latter requires evidence enough to convince a jury to hand in a verdict. What one accepts as true is vastly different from what is prosecutable.

[–]Elcactus 12 points13 points  (1 child)

What's worse were the people insisting that they shouldn't have said anything at all. Any of them. Until the guilty verdict comes down. Because any of this would have gotten even the barest beginning of traction if it wasn't for the publicity surrounding it.

[–]LordFluffy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand the seed of caution that grew into that tree of nonsense. I know someone personally who has been charged with sexual assault crimes that was exonerated once in court, pushed into a plea bargain in an earlier incident, and who I'd bet my car was innocent of that charge as well. I have seen how it destroyed his life and what it took for him to distance himself and get a chance of normalcy. The accusation alone is enough to put a big mark on you for the rest of your days. False or exaggerated claims are still deadly.

That said, the only way this happens is for victims to speak up and give others the space to chime in, to tell their stories. I won't be shocked if we hear another charge against this guy in the next week. Even if it's not him, other abusers will be outed and it will be because someone had the courage and space to be able to name their abuser, paving the path for others to follow, so that hopefully these wicked people don't assume they have the luxury of operating in the dark, even if criminal charges are never filed.

[–]otra_gringa 33 points34 points  (4 children)

She has no motive to lie. He has every reason to deny it. Her story is credible. I'd love to hear them both testify in court. I hope he sues her for defamation and she counter-sues for molestation for $1.

[–]Xo0om 1 point2 points  (1 child)

And we are choosing her.

So you're calling out the knee jerk doubters, but you're a knee jerk believer? OK.

[–]Planeis 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nope. He made a statement that frankly didn’t make me believe him and actually made it worse.

There’s not gonna be proof. The only information we’ll ever have is there statements.

[–]Infernalism 102 points103 points  (25 children)

Now it's getting interesting.

According to the article, her mother and guardian 'reported it.' James Cameron says he heard nothing about it, but would have done something severe if he'd been told.

So, who did they tell? Some of his assistants? The police?

I believe her, naturally, but there's something more going on here.

[–]catdogecat 106 points107 points  (9 children)

If you read the statement in the article she said she reported it to a person in authority and was met with blank stares as if it was normal behavior from Kramer.

So obviously she did not report it to police but somebody with authority on set.

[–]Infernalism 25 points26 points  (7 children)

Which I believe, and yet at the same time, James Cameron states that he heard 'nothing' about it or he would have been without mercy or something like that.

So, who did she report it to?

[–]Gunblazer42 60 points61 points  (2 children)

It could be that whoever she reported it to just didn't think to tell James Cameron.

[–]DragonPup 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Didn't think to report it to Cameron, or deliberately left him in the dark?

[–]wyldcat 26 points27 points  (1 child)

The producer would have highest authority on set.

[–]vvyn 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Yes. She absolutely means anyone above the line which are : EPs, producers (Cameron & Stephanie Austin), director, writer, and actors (Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jaime Lee Curtis).

[–]SlouchyGuy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Likely the producers. Theya re the ones who are dealing with organization of of the shoot, not director

[–]plomerosKTBFFH 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Maybe James Cameron did hear about it, but did nothing.

[–]Touchstone033 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Or Cameron was told and didn’t do anything, because it’d be hard to replace your stunt coordinator in the middle of a movie, and denies it now, because he wants to keep making movies.

Or maybe Cameron doesn’t remember, because it wasn’t a big deal then, too common, whatever.

Or maybe she told a producer, say. Who likely wouldn’t have said anything to Cameron if the “authority” thought it might disrupt the shooting schedule.

[–]cosmist 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The 1st AD / UPM / one of the producers would be the most likely conclusion, as they hold the responsibility for something like this.

[–]Typical_Samaritan 14 points15 points  (5 children)

I believe her, naturally, but there's something more going on here.

Why? And why "naturally"?

[–]ihahp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe the girl, but I think the thinking of There's something more going on here" is because the story ends at with a nondescript "we told an authority and got blank stares"

Who?! Who did you tell? What did you say exactly? Was their reaction actually blank stares or did they say anything else?

The accusation ends there. It just ... there must be more to it, right?

[–]Xatencio00 23 points24 points  (2 children)

Her claims, denied by Kramer, are being confirmed by Sue Booth-Forbes, who was Dushku’s legal guardian on the set of the film.

Like... why did you, her legal guardian during filming, allow this man to be alone with your child? Later on in the article it says that Dush was assaulted by the man in his hotel room. What? Exqueeze me? Baking powder? Why would you let your 12-year old charge go to a man's hotel room alone? It sounds like you failed her, lady.

[–]fullflushout 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Exactly. I don't need to hear all this bullshit about how things happen to people who talk in Hollywood. It wasn't Eliza's job to report it, but it was her legal guardian's job. I mean... does that need clarification? Go to the police! Don't report it to the boss and leave it at that.

[–]canuck_11 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sounds like Booth-Forbes should be charged as well. Insane that she can confirm it happened but didn’t do anything about it.

[–]Naieve 6 points7 points  (0 children)

She should have told Arnold.

[–]BernardMarxs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I tried to keep Joel away from her as did others working on the set, but because of all the stunts she had to do, he was constantly involved with her and her body.

I wonder if James Cameron would have fired him had he known.

[–]twighunter 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Dushku is sounding more and more credible with this kind of back up.

[–]misfitx 10 points11 points  (1 child)

She's so brave, coming forward like this. I see a lot of victim blaming in this thread and want to remind everyone that she's the victim and if you want to blame anyone blame the guy who did this not someone who chose to risk everything to talk about a super private and traumatizing event that happened when she was twelve.

[–]OMGWTFLULZ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Poor fuckin kid. I wont be able to watch that movie again knowing that.

[–]_thattguy_ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Child actors seems to have "legal guardians," why don't they have regular moms and dads?

[–]Underwater_Karma 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sounds like it's time for Kramer to "donate" $1.5 million to #TimesUp

[–]LoudMouthSous 5 points6 points  (38 children)

God, fucking dammit, not her too. Is there no limit to the disgusting shit the men of the entertainment industry did/will do?

[–]TheOneTrueWinner 1 point2 points  (37 children)

You say that with no evidence even a single accusation is real.

[–]gshennessy 1 point2 points  (36 children)

What evidence do you want?

[–]lolreallyfoo 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Enough to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt would be a start.

[–]gshennessy 1 point2 points  (5 children)

That’s for a jury to decide, if it gets that far.

[–]likes_to_read 2 points3 points  (0 children)

More than just her word for sure.