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[–]manster62 279 points280 points  (112 children)

We in Canada will never forget how you screwed us on softwood lumber.

[–]MakerMuperMaster 161 points162 points  (30 children)

And Bombardier.

[–]Thamandalin 65 points66 points  (1 child)

And the Avro-Arrow.

[–]WK--ONE 124 points125 points  (0 children)

and NAFTA in general.

[–]Speech500 50 points51 points  (9 children)

You also have support from a lot of British people on the whole Bombardier thing. Though the British government can't do much, because even though Bombardier hires a lot of people here, Boeing hires more...

[–]slickswitch 18 points19 points  (8 children)

Those planes need wings...and you build them. We know this and appreciate it.

[–]NewfsAway 51 points52 points  (10 children)

There are many things I don't like about Trudeau, but it's hard to argue that he isn't standing up for us right now.

[–]proggR 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Ya, on various domestic issues, like electoral reform, he's been disappointing. And the ethics complaints, while largely politically motivated, shouldn't have been allowed to drag on for so long and should have been nipped in the bud immediately so they didn't become a sideshow.

But that said, given how hard these geopolitcal waters are to navigate when Trump in the Whitehouse, I've been consistently happy with the way we've handled things globally. For now I'll happily set aside any gripes I have with Trudeau if it allows us to keep facing forward and to keep our geopolitical stability as secure as possible. I do worry that the electoral reform decision could split the vote and hand the Conservatives a win, but I hope people see the importance of avoiding another Conservative government during these crazy times in the world. We can't afford the CPC winning in 2019 or I fear we'll follow the US once again rather than breaking away to make our own future at a time when we desperately need to.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (5 children)

From a politics stand-point, this is a bit of a gift for Trudeau, all he needs to do is not roll over to the Americans and he will look good. There are no difficult decisions to make, just don't accept a bad deal. The issues come after NAFTA dissolves, when the economy could potentially contract.

[–]thatswhatshesaidxx 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Although it's very difficult and unfair to compare the real to the imagined - I think Trudeau is dealing with this 500% better than Andrew Scheer would.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Harper wrote an Op-Ed basically hating on Trudeau for not giving into Trumps demands.

[–]TheWolfmanZ 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That will be bad for everyone involved too.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It's weird because an economic downturn will really screw up Trumps support, people are willing to put up the eccentricity until their jobs are on the line. If the US employment rate goes down, Trump is going to have everyone turn on him.

[–]Alexdoh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I doubt it highly.

They already think the upswing is all down to Trump rather than it having been increasing in strength since Obama.

He'll tweet that its Obamas fault somehow and his base laps it up even if it hurts them directly.

[–]bitter_butterfly 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is very true. The government has been doing a great job not backing down or giving in.

[–]OresteiaCzech 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Be glad for Trudeau. No leader you will get is perfect. But as long he stands for you guys in times of need, that is what matters the most. Cheers from Czech Republic, wish us luck in elections!

[–]Dr9 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Other than that he wants to add random social justice talking points to NAFTA.

[–]serviceslave 24 points25 points  (2 children)

The bilateral friction over lumber trade dates back to 1982, when the U.S. softwood lumber industry brought a complaint

Never forget? In order to forget, you need to remember in the first place.

Sep 4, 2002 - Canada recently won another appeal at the World Trade Organization against new American tariffs on softwood lumber

This has happens every generation, same party involved, same outcomes. We get our day in court, we win, they do it again later...the circle of life goes on.

[–]-Yazilliclick- 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yes and people remember that.

[–]Fuzzy_Dunlops 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But how do they keep doing it. Reddit told me that the WTO was more powerful than any government.

[–]0xD153A53 10 points11 points  (5 children)

In the end Canada won, though...

The billions collected in tariffs were returned to Canadian lumber mills, who used that money to buy American lumber mills. We effectively have control of North American lumber.

...and the same kind of thing is going to happen again...

[–]Lovv 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Only half of the tarrifs were returned.

[–]Wallofwillow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The billions collected in tariffs were returned to Canadian lumber mills

Not all of it. Harper made a deal with Bush and it was a really pathetic amount. It was a lot less than half so I'm not sure what is being referred to elsewhere. America has all the leverage. They'll throw a bone here and there to uphold some semblance of fairness, but it's not fair.

[–]Fuel4U 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Well why the heck do I have to pay US $14.99 for a small bottle of maple syrup for my pancakes? And why do I have to steal my hockey stream from CBC because your commentators are so much better than ESPN? Meet us halfway my ass.....

[–]sonotimpressed 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Dude maple syrup is expensive!

[–]ShoutsAtClouds 8 points9 points  (4 children)

We're not unreasonable people. Remove Mike Millbury, either from TV or this mortal coil, and we'll talk.

As for maple syrup, it's complicated. There was a dramatic drop in prices years ago and a bunch of producers went under. So now they run that shit like OPEC or De Beers. All producers sell to the FPAQ, and then they control 3/4 of the global syrup supply.

You probably heard about the guys who stole $30M in syrup about 5 years ago? They stole it from the "Global Strategic Maple Syrup Reserve" controlled by FPAQ.

[–]Fuel4U 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Sure did hear about the great maple syrup heist. Didn't know it was a cabal, explains the prices, still I pay directly it gladly and add it my pancakes.

[–]MadDjinn 0 points1 point  (2 children)

It's an evil cabal. They even use police to 'enforce' their sole purchasing requirements. No one in Quebec can sell maple syrup to anyone else. They'll even show up and tag all the syrup and leave cops there to prevent any going missing. They even tried to force non Quebec based maple syrup producers to join them. Thankfully they failed that.

[–]tomatoesrfun 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Don’t know why you got downvotes. It’s a complex issue and like all such issues there are multiple facets.

[–]MadDjinn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Some people like their evil cabals? Supply management groups in Canada can be debatably useful, or not, but most of them aren't as aggressive against producers like the maple syrup cartel.

[–]Fuel4U 5 points6 points  (8 children)

Ok, you deserve a real answer about lumber. First I grew up in Oregon, then lived in Alaska for 13 years, played Beer League Hockey and love the Great White North. I'm a life long news junky and read news daily.

Here is my assessment: Oregon is a lumber state. It's set up as part of our tax system and lumber sales fund schools and other stuff. We have a long time Senator named Ron Wyden. He does a good job for our state and is quite powerful in the Senate. His reelection campaign is funded by Oregon business interest, including the powerful lumber lobby.

So I'm not sure if this is true or not, it was in an article I read, but at some point supposedly the Canadian Government started a subsidized program for your lumber industry by not charging your companies for timber on government lands. The US, and Oregon does charge a fee for lumber cut on government lands. Supposedly this is a violation of NAFTA, not sure, and makes your lumber unfairly cheaper than Oregon lumber.

Well Ron Wyden fought for his states, Oregons, lumber business, the same business that funds his election campaign, and the tax base that pays for Oregon kids schools, the lumber sales funds the tax base, remember?

So now we are in a lumber war. I still love my Canadian cousins, God bless hockey and maple syrup and daper don.

[–]owndcheif 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Good description from the american perspective. The wikipedia article is actually pretty good too. It boils down to the fact that we have a lot of government owned land with trees on it and the government sells the logging rights at a certain price point that is not regulated by the market. because its cheap the us says we subsidize. the fact is we just have more supply and less demand for trees so they end up being cheeper, if it wasnt government owned they would still be cheap.

[–]Fuel4U 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Very true, Canada has way more forest than the US for lumber. Oregon is the #1 provider for US lumber because of our messed up tax base. Once we change to a sales tax base instead if an income tax base we will not be so dependant on lumber sales to bolster our tax base. There are still powerful economic interests though who do not want a sales tax base so it's a slow process. I for one would like to see the trees stay in the forest here, and see a more stable tax base.

[–]arthurpaliden 13 points14 points  (4 children)

Canada does not subsidize lumber. That is why Canada keeps winning at the WTO.

[–]Angry_Sapphic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What happened?

[–]scolfin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I knew it was the iron/lumber thing again. It's like every year.

[–]NoneVermis -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This is nothing short of cringe worthy....

I think we're even now though since you guys gave us Justin Bieber.

[–]Lousy_hater 96 points97 points  (33 children)

As a Canadian, I used to love having America as our closest ally (I still do) but the days are getting rough when the current American leadership is breaking apart the trust we had strengthen over the century..

[–]cavmax 67 points68 points  (26 children)

Yeah the good old days before the U.S. was a laughing-stock to the whole world...

[–]garlicroastedpotato 9 points10 points  (2 children)

A lot of that was sort of a fake trust.

For example under Obama (leadership that wasn't hostile to trade but actually tried to make a legacy off of it) put in place laws that allowed for labels to read "American Made" even though we have a very integrated system that doesn't really allow for something to be fully American or Canadian made.

American companies began dumping drywall into Alberta and Saskatchewan to take advantage of the construction boom that was happening there and the Canadian government put a tariff on it... which of course caused the costs of rebuilding homes in burnt down Fort McMurray to skyrocket.

It has never been a stable relationship. But the costs of these minor tariffs have always been worth keeping the agreement. The Americans have always known this since the beginning and could always put in these tariffs.

Donald Trump as far as putting on tariffs isn't doing something outside of the range of normal relations. Nor is Canada in fighting them doing anything unusual here. This sort of tit for tat thing has been going on for 30 years.

It's why NAFTA should be modernized to include all these sorts of things that have just nonstop been things.

[–]CosmicCharlie99 3 points4 points  (1 child)

That’s a well laid out argument, but I think everyone can agree that Trump has Zero ability to renegotiate NAFTA.

[–]prove_this 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Maybe he could scrap it and give the Chinese a new trade partner like he did with TPP.

[–]losian 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Which is what some of us are most worried about - he's a fucking dickwit for sure, but I'm thinking mid and long term.. how long will it take to rebuild trust with allies? How many fuckups are we going to be paying for to the tune of years or decades, all long after him and all his buddies have already cashed in and cashed out on all of this President thing, and left everyone else with the fallout.

[–]jinkyjormpjomp 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I’m more concerned about American society in general. Trump, for all his flaws is merely what Hannah Arendt would call the subterranean river than runs through our history bursting out of the ground and washing away the dignity of our institutions. Long after he’s gone, that river will still run through us... and social media seems to be the perfect conduit to pipe it up to the surface daily, rather than once every generation.

[–]Alaea -1 points0 points  (0 children)

America has been fucking with the trust of their allies for 70 years.

"America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests." - Henry Kissinger

[–]Zeknichov 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If America isn't playing fairly then Canada has no choice but to take protective measures. This will not help America or Canada as a whole but at least Canada won't be exploited by America.

[–]pm_your_lifehistory 69 points70 points  (47 children)

if you people were smart you would ban US coal, you would not only have something to bargain with but you would also knock the ever-living shit out of the areas that voted for trump. Just about every single piece of american coal that leaves the US leaves via canada and there really is no other way to do it without a massive amount of port restructuring that would take years in what is already a dying industry.

I never thought I would be in a position where I am cheering on Canada over the American Appalachians but here we are.

[–]myweed1esbigger 35 points36 points  (17 children)

The idea has been thrown around by BC gov- we just don’t want to get into a trade war.

[–]FarawayFairways 12 points13 points  (3 children)

The idea has been thrown around by BC gov- we just don’t want to get into a trade war.

I sense there's a lot more global buy in from both a political, economic, and let's be honest, personal, stand point today. China is much more of a factor today than it was previously, and the Canadians have taken steps to get a bespoke FTA with the EU

The big question in all of this would how might the American population respond? Would they go all Fox and Friends on the world and break out the lapel badges (again). Or would they turn their anger on Trump and his kow towing to corporations?

[–]My53rdaccount 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Average Americans would be pissed at Canada. Union and Trade leaders who actually pay attention would be mad at Trump. And make no mistake, those are the people that actually matter. The coal lobbyists would have a fucking conniption.

[–]proggR 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yup. We make take an economic hit if we start sanctioning the states, but given they import more from us than any other country, we can target those sanctions in a way that ultimately hurts GOP officials up for re-election. Once lobbyists start screaming at congress, you'll see congress start to change its tune on supporting Trump. Its already becoming political suicide to keep supporting him, but if you get corporate blowback after Canada cuts the US off, you'll see congress move for impeachment ASAP.

If Canada was willing to take a short/medium term economic hit, we could single handedly end Trump.

[–]FarawayFairways 4 points5 points  (0 children)

OK, someone set up a 'fund me' page for Canada. I'm sure the world would chip in. Come to think of it, I suspect half of America would too

[–]thinkfast1982 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're in a trade war

[–]scolfin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If memory serves, the lumber dispute is partly in retaliation for tariffs on US steel.

[–]koproller 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The EU had a similar idea. When Trump threatened with a steel tariff, the EU told the US that they could expect countermeasures within days.
These countermeasures would include a tariff on bourbon. This was a direct threat to Kentucky, to McConnell, and a clear signal that the EU will react fast and will target the States responsible for the trade row.

[–]Xavanux 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Trump is just a puppet for corporations that control the entire fucking world.

The common man has no power unless they band together against the tightening grip of corporations.

[–]pm_your_lifehistory 3 points4 points  (1 child)

which is why he got the lion share of the funding during the election. Oh wait, he didnt.

[–]Alexdoh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No. Just pro bono work from the Mercers and whatever Oligarchs were instructed to buy Trump property.

Come on down to Dirty Donnies Laundromat!

[–]hairychang 3 points4 points  (1 child)

It’s unfortunate for all of us in Canada that our money and technology can be given away to large entities for literally $0. This type of thievery isn’t new.

But, airbus may prove to be a good partner for our product. They may even have the expertise and corrupt contacts to sell this sucker to more clients than bombardier proved capable of in the last few years.

I choose to remain optimistic in this situation. bombardier and airbus have an opportunity to develop a relationship and find synergies in their business units that may in fact lead to more work for bombardier and Canadians.

As a Canadian that’s what I expect and anticipate.

If Harper was in power I would expect bombardier to be a unit of Boeing by now and be waiting for the day when all manufacturing moves from Toronto and Montreal to Seattle and North Carolina.

[–]Fantasticxbox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok Airbus paid 1 euro to Bombardier actually.

Otherwise, it’s not a bad deal for both Airbus and Bombardier (and the government of Quebec who spend a lot in the C series).

For Airbus they now have a nice Series of planes. And a way to give a middle finger to Boeing.

For Bombardier, they know have access to assembly lines of Airbus and a huge marketing power that will bring a lot of money (well I mean contracts that will bring money). Hell it might even give more money than if Bombardier was alone. And also give a middle finger to Boeing.

Meanwhile Boeing will try to get Embraer which will most likely fail since Brazil won’t give up one of its major industry that’s easy.

Edit : a word

[–]arthurpaliden 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Remember people, Canada does not subsidize lumber. That is why Canada keeps winning at the WTO and NAFTA.

[–]Devanismyname 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Doesn't the US have to pay us a bunch of money the owe us?

[–]herbertportillo 9 points10 points  (7 children)

"You've restored American credibility on the world stage" - Idiot Mike Pence

Deep down Republicans must know that the world hates when they get elected, or they're absolutely deluded

[–]TheGhostofSwitzer 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Actually Republicans enjoy Europe and Canadian bitching because their goal is to be as far away culturally from Europe and Canada as possible. When European and Canadian leadership complain about Trump it strengths his credibility because if your cultural opponent is angry, you're doing something right.

I don't think anyone understands that Republicans really couldn't care less about.

[–]mxe363 6 points7 points  (1 child)

so... maybe you could clear some thing up for me. what exactly do the republicans stand for? i mean other then "fuck the other guy, no homo" (which they seem to excel at). like what is the general ideology that most republicans (sans trump) rally behind?

[–]TheGhostofSwitzer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

America first and foremost is universal. Anything beyond that is generalizing Northeastern Republicans, Midwest Republicans, and Appalachia types who all believe slightly different things.

[–]daddy_fatsacks -1 points0 points  (6 children)

can someone explain to me why Canada can't just tax the shit out of the oil the US is stealing from them in response?

[–]B_P_G 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Oil is almost totally fungible and it has a market price. Therefore any tax they levy would be paid almost totally by their own production companies. American oil companies aren't going to pay some ridiculous premium for Canadian oil when they can just buy it from some other country.

[–]Xavanux -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

You forget that America has one of the biggest oil supplies in the world lmao. We ha EA our own oil field too so of Canada tries to pull shit, it doesn't matter much because we can go elsewhere or make our own stuff.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because they aren't stealing oil from us. And ideally we just want a good trading partner, not a trade war.

[–]1201alarm 1 point2 points  (1 child)

until Canada has the balls to build a pipeline across the Rockies and start exporting or refining oil sand crude out of ports north of Vancouver instead of shipping it down pipelines like Keystone 1 and XL to the US gulf coast they don't have such clout.

[–]____Reme__Lebeau[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Never gonna happen. Did you ever slsee the purposes with like 10 missing islands? There is the deciet to get it built. And then there is the theft to get it built. We would have to steal more land from a tribe in BC. Only this tribe has a treaty and also the ruling of the supreme Court of Canada that their lands are unceded.

[–]Enjoysallformsofdata 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perhaps you don't understand the oil situation? Not trying to sound like a dick, but our dollar isin't par. We are restricted by pipeline capacity which hurts prices when shipping south to refineries (Western Canadian Select), which is known as a basis. But that is also why we don't hike interest rates as fast as Americans, in that every nominal barrel of oil sold is in American dollars. But the costs to produce it are in Cad. CAD/USD is 80 cents.

[–]spacelordmofo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

LMAO at these comments.

[–]arizona_rick -5 points-4 points  (1 child)

And what will the toothless WTO do? They have done little to nothing in their 20 years. Countries are turning to regional agreements to get things done.

[–]pond_party 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The WTO trade dispute settlement doesn't need teeth itself, it works by awarding successful claims the right to retaliatory tariffs. When Canada and Mexico complaint at the WTO that a US country-of origin regulation was unfair to them and the WTO ruled in their favor they were awarded the right to impose $781 million and $228 million, respectively, in retaliatory tariffs against U.S. imports. The US withdrew the legislation in question in 2015 so it clearly worked in that case.