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Trade war: EU will put tariffs on US metals after ‘depressing’ G7 tweets by Donald Trump

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2.0k points · 1 month ago

Did trump think that other countries WEREN'T going to respond?

724 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

His advisors were apparently surprised that Canadians instituted counter-tariffs.

The reality is that his advisors are not well respected experts in their own fields, so of course their predictions/opinions are inaccurate. Trudeau didn't get along with Obama politically, because he thought Obama was too right-wing... so while Trudeau might have put up with Trump, and tried to play nice for the sake of international diplomacy, he wasn't going to be a pushover on policy points out of any personal like/buy-in to Trump's ideology. Canadians are also pretty fiercely nationalistic – unlike the Europeans who might compromise for pragmatic reasons (i.e. Germany doesn't want their cars banned), compromise wouldn't play well in Canadian domestic politics at all, and Canadians would be willing to match the U.S. even if it hurts them significantly in a trade war... just out of principle.

The NYTimes actually had a interesting article out in the last few days about the Canadian government's very deliberate strategy, executed after Trump's election. Essentially their foreign office put together an elite team of policy makers (named "Team Canada," haha), led by a Harvard/Oxford educated former globe-trotting journalist, and they deliberately made hundreds of quiet meetings with Americans politicians on both side of the isle, basically lobbying on Canada's behalf. Trudeau was supported by a former PM who was actually from the Conservative Party, but helped broker meetings with Trump and American conservatives, and ensured the Canadian government would hit the right tone on congratulations/setting early meetings with Trump. Everything was planned for... even when the tariffs where announced by the U.S., the Canadian government immediately offered it's counter-tariffs, because the list had already been made with this contingency in mind.

Trump's advisors have actually complained in the last days about Canadian lobbying that spread farther than the president himself, but it's all part of the Canadian strategy to hedge bets, for exactly the event that has occurred – should Trump sour on Trudeau. Now the Canadian government is counting on Congress/Senate to curb Trump's power since they've lost goodwill from Trump himself. It might not work, but I guess there's no other option.

99 points · 1 month ago

That sounds awesome. Team Canada lol! Any sources for further reading/verifiability?

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121 points · 1 month ago

I like how intelligent you make us Canadians sound haha. But yeah we are quite nationalistic, especially when it comes to the US. We’d likely be more compromising towards European nations (at least public opinion would be anyways) but not the US, and especially not for trumps US. Why they’re surprised is beyond me, just read our newspapers and you’d know that It would be political suicide for Trudeau to give in to Trump, even if it would be more beneficial for us. And like you say it’s a matter of principle, we aren’t going to be bullied by this administration.

This is true. Even conservatives in Manitoba (which is a lot of people) think Trump is an idiot.

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Oh jeez, so this is what competent leaders do? Why doesn't Trudeau just eat some McD's, tweet a bunch of shit, and then go in and wing it???

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383 points · 1 month ago

The Art of the Deal or something

Comment deleted1 month ago(7 children)

I recall his account about how painful writing about Trump was, because he wouldnt have the patience to sit down five minutes and answer questions.

That's putting it lightly. He fucking hates Trump.

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ghost writer

Coauthor. His name is printed on the cover, so trumptards can't deny he wrote it.

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353 points · 1 month ago

Yup. And hes blaming them. Such a child

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EU metal is better anyway. Heavy, progressive, speed, symphonic, black, death etc.

Since Finland joined the EU in 1995 it’s really been quite obvious which continent is stronger.

Yeah, the Swedish really love their metal!

Take Sabaton for example


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That was genius.

Don't forget Folk.

Prague Metal

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Why are we now better friends with Saudi Arabia than we are Canada and the EU? Wtf is going on?!

3.3k points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

As a Canadian, I'm still your buddy, guy!

As an American, I'm still your guy fwiend!

As a Mexican, I'm KINDA your fwiend....guy

As a german i'm still hate all of you /s

As an Australian I'm still your mate, ya cunt.

As British I can't stand this public display of affection chaps.

492 points · 1 month ago

As a Canadian/Indian, This is tech support how may I help you ?

139 points · 1 month ago

As a Canadian/American, I am so confused right now.

As an American/Texan can you translate what the Canadian/Indian said for me?

28 points · 1 month ago

At this moment we are all confused .... we feel your pain.

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129 points · 1 month ago

As a Swiss I don‘t have any opinion about this.

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As also British, I am really terribly embarrassed that this member of our ranks spoke out, and will physically move myself apart from him whilst making Incomplete vocal noises.

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As a Nigerian prince I would like to ask you for some assistance obtaining my 1b trust fund.

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As a Somali, I am still the captain here

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159 points · 1 month ago

I am happy for Australia that it is helping turn the word cunt into a universal term for platonic endearment.

He's a good cunt for helping in our Australian revolution to free the word cunt.

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As a Pole... pierogi anyone?

Yes. Yes, please!

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22 points · 1 month ago

As an Italian, let's get spaghetti everybody! yes?

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As a Texan, I'm.... sorry amigo. :(

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37 points · 1 month ago(3 children)

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Well, Canada didn't fly any airplanes into our buildings, so...uh...

283 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

But they burnt down the whitehouse. Soooo... samesies? /s

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704 points · 1 month ago

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot)

Europe will implement counter-measures against US tariffs on steel and aluminium, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Sunday, voicing regret about President Donald Trump's abrupt decision to withdraw support for a Group of Seven communique.

After a failure to get Trump to budge on the tariffs he placed against America's G7 allies, Justin Trudeau held a press conference in which he vowed retaliatory action.

Trump responded on Twitter: "Based on Justin's false statements at his news conference, and the fact that Canada is charging massive Tariffs to our U.S. farmers, workers and companies, I have instructed our U.S. Reps not to endorse the Communique as we look at Tariffs on automobiles flooding the U.S. Market!".

Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Trump#1 tariffs#2 Merkel#3 US#4 Canada#5

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I do not like this timeline.

314 points · 1 month ago

If only we knew of the repercussions of the cubs winning the World series. Perhaps we wouldn't have let them

Yeah! Definitely!

-A Cleveland Indians fan

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247 points · 1 month ago

Not again Barry!!!

Are we living in flashpoint? That would make so much more sense

Trump just knows that the Atlantean/Amazonian War is going to sink all of Europe and he's trying to prepare America for the economic fallout.

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49 points · 1 month ago

The darkest timeline.

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981 points · 1 month ago

"Mr. President?"

"What John?"

"I have a lot of angry CEOs on the line calling about your trade comments at the G7"

"How many?"

"All of them, sir"

"...John prep Air Force One for an extended stay at Mar-a-Lago."

Comment deleted1 month ago(38 children)

Just because we don't hear it doesn't mean that they are silent. They for sure have better means than go full-frontal in the evening news.

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71 points · 1 month ago

Actually ceasing trade with the EU and India would be a catastrophe for literally every industry in America.

46 points · 1 month ago

Yep, he might finally be overextending. If he does this and people like Hannity are suddenly going broke because all of their investments fall apart maybe something will finally actually change.

Somehow I totally doubt it though. They will probably just paint their toilets gold and say how rich all of this made them rather than admit fault.

34 points · 1 month ago

I mean, Trump at the end of the day isn't going to cease trade with the EU, but merely the fact that he is suggesting it is unacceptable. He's basically threatening to crash the world economy because the EU and Canada are being mean to him.

41 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

In a normal world I would totally agree. But if I had a nickel for every time I have heard someone say "Trump isn't going to do" something he later did I would be a bit richer.

I don't know if he can succeed. But at this point I would not be surprised if he tried.

Interestingly this is a MASSIVE negotiation mistake. Ironic coming from Mr. "Art of the Deal." He has essentially given up all of our negotiating power by forcing them to take s hard line against the United States. The US has a privileged* enough economic position that it can apply real pressure in trade deals, but throwing a tantrum like this means that we will get very few concessions now.

It is like my old Math teacher who could not control his class. He told a bunch of teenagers he would fail them all, or give them all detention, ect, when they were not listening. He could not follow through, and they knew that, and so he lost all power to control them.

*My auto-correct never catches that mistake lol.

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1.9k points · 1 month ago

"Wait... They're allowed to retaliate?"

-Trump, probably.

1.2k points · 1 month ago

Yesterday when he was saying "they better not place retaliatory tariffs," it really goes to show the degree of his mental deterioration. He's not aware that that's a normal part of this trade war he started.

That's what's pissed me off the most. He's accusing everyone else of being unreasonable but he started this trade war, despite warnings it would start a trade war and now he's pissed there's a trade war?!

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That one guy calling the retaliatory tariffs a "betrayal" and saying Justin Trudeau deserved a special place in hell. It'd be like the "I can't believe you've done this" meme except with 15 more seconds of context where you see him punch his buddy in the face first.

186 points · 1 month ago

As a Canadian, that pissed me off so much.

He honestly felt like America should be able to do whatever they want to Canada, but Canada has no right to do that to America.

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236 points · 1 month ago

I know right? No, Trudeau didn't stab you in the back. He punched you in the face, because you punched him first!

God my sister used to do this constantly when we were kids. She would taunt or hit me and then I would retaliate and she would immediately start shrieking, "MOM, MOM, ELMUCHOCAPITANO HIT ME AGAIN, SHE'S CRAZY!" So basically Trump has the emotional maturity of a ten year old girl.

126 points · 1 month ago

That's a bit harsh on 10 year old girls, don't you think?

r/AskReddit : If a ten year old girl were president of the United States, what would change?

Less cheating on spouses with strippers, I assume.

As well as more Barney Time in the White House. Well, maybe; who knows what Trump watches.

  • Less strippers

  • More Barney

  • Larger hands

Though tbh, the cast of Barney & Friends would make better political advisors than any of Trump's picks. They seemed to have respectable values and basic human (reptilian?) decency.

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It's been in the fascist playbook forever. You prompt your enemies to fight back, then use that fight as the reason you need more authority.

295 points · 1 month ago

Except we're not your enemies

You're Putin's enemy, which makes you Trump's enemy.

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But they're easy to win....right guys? Guys?

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9 points · 1 month ago

Yep all he has to do is look at a very simple stat to see that the EU's GDP is about the same size as the US's and that that obvious means they won't take anything laying down. The EU even back in 2002 with Bush's steel tariffs did not take them laying down and this was when EU was by some margin smaller than the US.

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"There's a special place in hell for any foreign leader that engages in bad faith diplomacy with President Donald J. Trump ...."


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200 points · 1 month ago

Putin must go to bed every night with the biggest shit-eating grin on his face

The USSR's most devilish play was to win the Cold War almost 30 years after it had even ceased to exist...

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339 points · 1 month ago

What are the exact tariffs that Canada is charging US farmers, the one Trump is using to defend his own tariffs?

813 points · 1 month ago

Canada has a complex system of tariffs, price fixing, and quotas. These tariffs apply to all imports, not just the U.S. This system is designed to stabilize the income of dairy farmers and ensure that we have a strong internal supply chain; not to prop us up on the global market. We still have a significant trade deficit in dairy despite these measures.

The United States, by contrast, hands out massive subsidies to its dairy farmers, to the tune of $20b/year (more than the value of the entire Canadian dairy market). This, in effect, artificially drives down the price of dairy products in the United States. It's also worth noting that U.S. standards for dairy products are different than Canada's, so creating a more open market would be a lot more complicated than just removing tariffs and subsidies.

Trump is acting like the Canadian tariffs are extremely damaging to the U.S dairy industry, but the market isn't open on either side. If both sides were to collapse their subsidies/protectionist measures, it would result is a net drop of revenue for both the American and Canadian dairy industries.

Comment deleted1 month ago(64 children)

Hes whining about cheap and sustainable lumber!? Jesus christ... This coming from a man who wants to open up national parks to oil and logging. This man is a plague.

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23 points · 1 month ago

Similar to the dairy though, it also gives the government better control over internal resources. Instead of just selling the land to a company and having them strip it bare and raze it, they allow them to cut the lumber while instituting certain requirements in terms of sustainability and replanting etc.

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Also, the WTO has ruled in Canada's favour every single time the softwood issue has come up.

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One other thing to note about the dairy, Canada imports 10% of their dairy from the U.S. while we have a limit on how much we will import set at 3% so while the raw % on the tariff is higher it's not as simple as "unfair higher tariff"

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74 points · 1 month ago

I only know what I read from another person who seemed to know what he was talking about so don't quote me 100%

But basically as I understand it the US subsidizes the shit out of dairy and we have a lot of cows. Canada has a tariff to protect their farmers since they can't possibly compete with the amount of production our government has propped up. Aside from that they still buy A LOT of dairy products from us still.

I'd love a confirmation with sources if anyone knows the details

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9.6k points · 1 month ago

America may soon have free trade with North Korea and no trade with the EU

Thank you, Donald, for treating this country like one of your many failing businesses

1.9k points · 1 month ago

This is the perfect opportunity for China to expand and push out American industry from our closest partners. China will be the big winner here, no question.

This is the perfect opportunity to destroy small business leaving only those large enough to weather this storm.

Well that doesn't make sense. Trump said he loves small business & would make them strong again. Oh wait...



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It's almost like there was a dossier released a while back that said that China would be the real benefactor

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When Donald does it: "Tough, you've been stealing from us"

When the EU does it: "You're ripping America off"

It's because of the "Merica's number 1" mentality. Half our country feels so fucking entitled to everything simply because they are America. They're losers with no sense of perspective, and there are enough of them to drag us down apparently

255 points · 1 month ago

It really is.

Went to the sub the other day and here's an excerpt, paraphrased because I don't quite remember the wording.

"americans should be drinking american milk anyway. canada is such a piece of shit for putting up tariffs on dairy and not drinking american milk"

so americans should drink american milk, but fuck canada for wanting to drink canadian milk instead of the lower standard american milk.

75 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

Thats the wonderful thing about hypocrisy and irony no longer being concepts

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This really is interesting. Many Americans don't know how terrible the quality of many "Made in the USA" products is. They simply assume it has to be the best in the world.

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Funny how his supporters always manage to overlook how many times he declared bankruptcy, how many businesses he failed, how much debt he is in and how his claim of being a billionaire cannot be verified by anyone.

2.3k points · 1 month ago

He sued when a journalist wrote he was not a billionaire. Court ruled he had to turn over his financials. Trump settled with the journalist asap.

664 points · 1 month ago

Got a link on that one? Wanna be able to whip it out for all those absurd "richer than you" comments.

873 points · 1 month ago
414 points · 1 month ago

Like.. How are his lawyers so bad they wouldn't have told him that 5 seconds into the conversation?

274 points · 1 month ago

Why would you think that they didn't? Everything we hear from and/or about Trump suggests that he doesn't pay much attention to legal advice from his lawyers.

174 points · 1 month ago

Remember that Trump's own lawyers refuse to meet with him one-on-one, instead preferring to have other lawyers present so that they can back them up when Trump claims lies and all sorts of baloney.

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Competent lawyers cost money. He doesn't have that, so...

Competent lawyers have a limited patience for people who don't listen to them, so the ranks of what he can recruit from are reduced to sycophants, old and irrelevant politicians going senile or mobsters.

Oooh, like Rudy!

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He doesn't listen to advice and doesn't pay his workers.

A serious lawyer with a real reputation for being good at their job is not going anywhere near that.

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29 points · 1 month ago

"Yes, even my own feelings, as to where the world is, where the world is going, and that can change rapidly from day to day. Then you have a September 11th, and you don't feel so good about yourself and you don't feel so good about the world and you don't feel so good about New York City. Then you have a year later, and the city is as hot as a pistol. Even months after that it was a different feeling. So yeah, even my own feelings affect my value to myself."

Lol wut

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don't forget how he had to curate the jokes at his own roast and didn't let anyone tell ones that said how broke he was.

In fact, the closing lines of his own segment were him reiterating how massively rich he is.

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99 points · 1 month ago

Doesn't surprise me tbh dude is a limp dick pussy.

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48 points · 1 month ago

Well, to be fair, if he had won that case, he would have been a billionaire...he was suing for 5 BILLION dollars!!!

I wonder if he delivered that demand with a pinky to his mouth...

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What billionaires do you know that pay nda’s in $30,000 increments.

I don't know any billionaires or their NDA policies, is it weird?

You don't need to, you can critically think through this. Would a billionaire need a payment plan for a $130k expense?

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They wanted him to run the country like one of his businesses.

He is.

Poorly, corruptly, and straight into bankruptcy.

167 points · 1 month ago

Poorly, corruptly, and straight into bankruptcy.

And will do everything he can to pin the losses and blame on his partners.

110 points · 1 month ago

Oh shit oh forgot about that.

I watched a thing on him on Netflix and yea after the casinos failed his partner died in a helicopter crash and he just did every interview possible throwing this poor guy under the bus.

Complete scum bag

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718 points · 1 month ago

Funny how an integral part of their worship for Trump is ignoring anything he says or does, period.

And by funny, I don't mean, "ha-ha"-funny, but more "stab-yourself-in-the-thigh-with-an-Exacto-knife"-funny.

218 points · 1 month ago

Indeed. The go to response when you cite something he said at them is ‘oh just ignore that you just don’t understand his negotiating skills. Art of the deal!’

So basically according to trump supporters the people of america and indeed the world should just ‘ignore’ what the president says.

I'm down for ignoring what the president says.

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Funny uh-oh, instead of funny ha-ha.

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" but he's richer than you so therefore he's successful" -_-

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52 points · 1 month ago

Yup. They own him.

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But I seens him on the TV box tellins bout money!

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Trust me, he is a billionaire now

It'd have to be dark money, because his net worth has fallen since becoming President. Granted, he's objectively still making money off of Mar-A-Lago and other properties around the world that he travels to and charges people to stay at while he's there - but his net worth has still fallen.

216 points · 1 month ago

Lol only trump could spend his entire presidency grifting and still come out behind

77 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

Because he doesnt understand how mutualistic trade works. He is a parasite in mind only. If he feels he is taking (regardless of what else is happening) then he feels like he is winning.

How else do you manage to bankrupt so many businesses while simultaneously fucking over large swaths of those who participate?

It's like if Bernie Madoff, Kaiser Wilhelm II, and a slow-in-the-mind Al Capone all assimilated into a person sized cheeto and were fighting it out for supremacy within it's new and confused consciousness.

Edited I

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Agree. He's setting himself up nicely when he leaves the White House.

I truly believe he was as shocked as everyone that he was actually elected. He likely thought well wtf, I don't want this job but might as well make some money while I'm here.

130 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

I believe in a little conspiracy theory I saw touted on here. I think he intended to rile everything up, lose, and use the Trump org to start a new alt right news network that accompanied Fox. There’s evidence the Trump organization was buying up tv time on a few major channels. This would’ve worked very well, I think- we saw how riled up certain segments of the country got. If he’d lost and claimed “this proves the Deep state is there. Tune in to ____ for the truth!” Just imagine the ratings.

I think that’s why he only seems to care about crowd count and ratings and publicity. It’s what the original strategy was. It got all mucked up by him winning.

He still can. Imagine if he gets impeached. The outrage will be rediculous.

40 points · 1 month ago

I don't think it would be the wildfire it would have been if he lost and started his own network. Enough people who voted for him feel burned by his presidency, so that would shrink his audience. Then if enough evidence comes to light and he gets impeached, that will surely convince more people. His core supporters would cry bloody murder, but only after he would have hemorrhaged a lot of support.

Meanwhile, if he lost and started his network, there wouldn't have been a chance for that many (now former) supporters to lose interest in him. There would also be way less interest in the collusion investigation, giving him more of a break.

55 points · 1 month ago

I thought that a month ago, but suddenly his approval rating is creeping up and Democrats aren’t winning by the same huge margins. He’s only a few percent approval away from where Obama was at this stage. It’s honestly kind of crazy.

Anyone can understand that threatening nuclear war on Twitter is a bad thing; far fewer people understand the ramifications of tariffs and trade wars with allies, especially while they still have a job.

42 points · 1 month ago

There’s also a conception that meeting with NK was some political masterstroke. It’s apparently not common knowledge that the last 5-6 presidents turned down meetings with NK Leadership to avoid giving them a sense of legitimacy (something they desperately want). Here’s hoping tomorrow goes well, but....

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111 points · 1 month ago

We're good get fucked harder than students of Trump University.

At least the students of Trump University were able to sue Trump and get their money back. I wish we had the same option

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Under the assumption North Korea wants anything from the USA but maybe food. They'll just keep getting their things from Russia and China. Who now face less competition for buying a bunch of assets essential for growing economies

Lol no doubt. Walking away from another bankruptcy wouldn't be a big deal to him. He's used to it.

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I think it's time we find out who is the Barry Allen in our universe and fuck him up for destroying our time line.

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“Canadians are polite and reasonable but we will also not be pushed around,” Trudeau said.

He Protecc but also attacc

2.0k points · 1 month ago

But most importantly, he got the eu’s bacc

149 points · 1 month ago

And possibly legal weed too.

216 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

He legalize the waccy tobacc

He is attracc

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216 points · 1 month ago

Not gonna lie, that was genius.

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Hey Canada, mind if the West Coast bunks with you guys for a while, say 3-7 years? We could use a leader with more than one working brain cell who isn't determined to completely fuck us over.

Im Canadian and I have lots of family in California, Washington and Colorado. Let's make our own country. With hookers and blackjack.

270 points · 1 month ago

We might need Nevada then.

Canada can use another desert.

Alaska can come too

the end!

(please tell me you're referring that epic video "the end of the world")

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63 points · 1 month ago

The dream already exists, onward and upwards Cascadia!

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If you're gonna join with us it can't just be a fling.

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217 points · 1 month ago

Can't wait to see Trumps tweets in response to this lol.

75 points · 1 month ago

EU BAD!!!!!!!11 VERY BAD

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48 points · 1 month ago

I'm giving 99:1 odds of him threatening nuclear war.

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The other day I was thinking about the Cuba Crisis and how close we had come to an all-out nuclear war.

Imagine having today's Trump dealing with that crisis back then.

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421 points · 1 month ago

Begun the Trade Wars have... Seriously though... I hope his supporters are happy. Quite likely.

348 points · 1 month ago

His supporters are happy when people are angry, especially any left of Trey Gowdy. Fox News, Limbaugh and those knuckleheads on AM radio all keep them happy by telling them how amazing Trump is. It's really scary -- we've created a 40-45% base of diehard ill-informed Trumpsters who will gladly take us all off a cliff if it means seeing liberal tears. The fact that he has an 87 percent approval rating with Republicans tells me that they have no interest in working together.

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132 points · 1 month ago

Happy? They are fucking glowing. I looked at Twitter comments under the G7 photo with Trump sitting, which some Republican posted, and the amount of Trump wankery almost made me vomit.

It's like standing on the Titanic and cheering for the radio operator who's continuing to ignore calls of danger in favor of sending out messages for 1st class passengers.

32 points · 1 month ago

It's like standing on the Titanic and cheering for the iceberg.

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My father explained why he voted for trump once. He told me that trump would be good for his machine shop he's opening, whatever that meant. I'm now looking at the tariffs on steel and wondering if he still believes that.

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1.8k points · 1 month ago

Makes sense. They hoped to resolve the issues over the summit but Trump shot it down, not even in person, but after they had left already and he had apparently agreed to it. Trump is over-estimating its economic strength, having the biggest dick military often does that to you.

Please American people, get out and vote in November and put some Dems in place that contest this. A full republican government is not doing you guys any good!

Trump is over-estimating its economic strength, having the biggest dick military often does that to you.

He's not. This is a beginner's negotiation tactic and it is unsurprising Trump is utilizing it. Basically, he started by saying "give me X and I'll give you Y". The EU and Canada are saying no to his deal. Instead of negotiating closer to something they want, he's threatening economic suicide for everyone.

It's basically the "you care more about the hostage than I do, so give me what I want" strategy. Only God knows if he'll actually pull the trigger but if he was dumb enough to do that then he'd blame everyone else for the trigger he pulled.

The "you made me kill her!" defense.

99 points · 1 month ago

It's possible for this to work only because Trump is fucking batshit crazy he might actually kill the global economy for his ego. So I could imagine a scenario where his "negotiation" works. It'll just shit on his credibility and good relations in the future.

Not that he has cared, he's stiffed and mistreated contractors and business partners for years. It's the "Art of the Deal" so to speak. Small minded, short sighted and egotistical.

I doubt it will work. If the EU and Canada give in it will only get worse. Also, if he's crazy enough to do it, everyone will get fucked, but USA will be extra fucked

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He is quite literally trying to run the country how I play Civs.

Oh you don't want to give me 2 cities and all of your GPT for my horses? Guess we're invading!

Until someone tells him he can't invade Canada.

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I think what is really needed is a party to fix the two-party voting system…

375 points · 1 month ago

I think that would be a nice thing to have happen but not an easy thing to have happen in our current political climate.

Being apathetic toward politics will only make this worse.

The best thing we can do is work within the system to elect politicians that align more with what we want, even if they don't align completely with what we want. It's a slow game but over time the Overton Window shifts.

121 points · 1 month ago

First of all you would have to start forming the new party at state level, because I was shocked to learn that only like 5 or 7 states have more than 2 parties, with New York having the most.

63 points · 1 month ago · edited 1 month ago

The problem with every call that I hear to form a new third party is that nobody seems to have any real ideas on how to keep it from falling to the same problems the average working class voter has with the other two parties.

Namely: large monied interests calling the shots while allowing the politicians to spoon feed the average person just enough of what they want to placate them and topping any remaining resentment with a heathy dose of dog whistle issues that the interests don't actually care about such as gun control or abortion.

Those interests will dig their hands in any new and upcoming party long before they get any traction on the national level. Just look at the Libertarian party as a primary example.

Meanwhile all this energy spent on forming an entirely new party could be better spent pushing the more receptive of the two existing parties to spoon feed us a bit more so the average schmuck can live a more comfortable life, call bullshit on the dog whistle issues, and accept that those with money and power are going to always call the shots but also realize that this isn't a zero sum game and even if they are the ones with the real power we can still live happy and comfortable lives while holding our politicians accountable enough to ensure that those with the money and power don't completely fuck everything up for all of us.

“What happens is third parties act as a gadfly,” said Sean Wilentz, director of the American Studies program at Princeton University. “There’ll be an issue that’s being neglected or that is being purposely excluded from national debate because neither party wants to face the political criticism that it would bring. A classic example was slavery.”

“It’s a kind of bitter sweetness,” he added. “[Third parties] are the ones that raise the issues that no one wants to raise and in the process they change the political debate and even policy, but they themselves as a political force, they disappear.”

Third Parties in the U.S. Political Process

13 points · 1 month ago

While this is a problem, it's also how you fix the problem. Make "the issue that’s being neglected or that is being purposely excluded from national debate because neither party wants to face the political criticism that it would bring" electoral reform.

Imagine if a large group of Democrats voted for a third party that had large scale electoral reform their only policy, consistently to the extent that democrats could never take the house, senate, or presidency without adopting it as policy. What are they going to do? Just hand the country to the Republican party? No, they'll adopt electoral reform as a policy and win the first election after they do this in a landslide. Neither party will disappear - certainly not quickly - after the US switches to a half-way sane electoral system. They just won't have a duopoly anymore. It's not suicide for the two large parties, it's just currently against their interests. That can be changed.

The had part about this strategy is that it requires serious long term organised commitment from a bloc of voters. You have to be prepared to throw an election or two and stick to your guns. That's what it takes to send a message to the current parties. You might not actually end up throwing any elections - but if you're not prepared to it's never going to work. And it might take two elections with your resolve remaining for either major party to get the message.

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Sadly, Trump actually is the closest thing to a third-party America is likely to see for the forseeable future, coming from outside the Republican establishment to essentially hijack the party. To be clear, this isn't to exonerate them for their actions, since they quickly fell in lockstep with him and his crazy.

An actual fix to the two-party system would require a fundamental change to either America's voting system (such as switching to one of any number of voting systems like the Alternative Vote or Single Transferale Vote) or its core composition (like changing Congress to be more of a parliamentary system). This would make third parties viable in a way that just hopes, dreams, and telling people to "vote with your heart" will never do.

Unfortunately, Americans in general have a big hate boner for anything new and especially for anything that other governments have done, so you'd immediately have people loudly attacking this as "un-American", an attack that would be trumpeted by both Democrats and Republicans as well, since of course they don't want to have more competition.

The funny thing is, if a change like this were made, someone like Trump would have undoubtedly never gotten elected in the first place, Republicans in Congress wouldn't constantly be under threat of being primaried out by a candidate who can pander better to the far right, and they could actually regain some control of their message, and maybe even their sanity.

But in politics, getting elected is the most important thing, because without getting elected, you can't do a damn thing. So no one supports ideas like these, so things keep getting progressively worse in a race to pander to the extremes.

"But what about Bernie Sanders?" I hear you ask. "Wouldn't Democrats be better off if they rallied behind him?"

Well, putting aside whether or not he'd actually be making the country better or pursuing Democrats' interests better, Democrats' natural inclination toward inclusiveness may have played a part in wanting to hopefully capture centrists by pushing more centrist politicians. Not a terrible strategy, and one that has worked for them in the past.

But Bernie is just the first step in a series of steps. Republicans didn't start with Trump, he's just the latest of a long line of pushing farther right that's gone on for decades. Radical liberals are just as crazy as radical conservatives, and we'd be just as screwed if one of them got in charge. If we kept pushing progressively more and more liberal candidates, it's only a matter of time before we'd get one.

But maybe the last presidential election changed all of that. People in general seem to understand that Hillary Clinton being a terrible candidate who was also being sabotaged by a campaign by a foreign government and that was a large part of why she lost, but she's taking no responsibility for how tone-deaf and stupid her campaign was, and while Democrats certainly want to hold Russia accountable, Republicans and Trump want to quash all of that... so what if Democrats get it in their head that their best chance at winning (the first priority in politics) is to pander to the base like Republicans have been doing for decades? Well, then eventually we get a president who wants to ban all meat, or who wants to pay slavery reparations, or incorporate healing via crystals and magnets into the Department of Health.

Are any Democrats right now wanting to do that? I don't think so. But if they ever decide to follow Republicans in constantly pandering to the base, we'll get there eventually. I'm sure forty years ago, Republicans would have thought it ridiculous that anyone would take seriously a candidate that wanted to build a literal wall on the Mexico border, pile large tariffs on our allies, and return to insisting that the president is above the law, yet here we are.

But is there a way to stop it? Is there a way to fix it? Sadly, I think it'll take a national disaster the likes of which makes 9/11 look like a paper cut to shake this country into doing something about it.

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I am really afraid that whatever Trump does is not just a problem for a couple of years, it will leave long lasting marks on US and the world.

If american system makes it possible for him to be POTUS, if it is possible to put in charge a person who threatens to finish all trade - then how people making long term decisions or plans can hope the next one will be any better?

Just today we talked at the company (where I work) to what extent we rely on US suppliers.

201 points · 1 month ago

Once a Democrat comes into office, they will blame him/her for Trumps long-lasting effects and then a Republican will be elected. Such is the cycle of the American political system.

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You're right. The world has realized that the behavior of the U.S. can change in just a single election, and the results can be a nightmare for all involved, including the U.S. itself.

Exactly. Who is going to want to make any deals with us when in a few years some dumbfuck can just go in and undo everything.

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202 points · 1 month ago

Easy to win

How many mulligans does Trump get when he golfs?

Probably none. He can’t remember his score so his caddy just writes down an eagle, birdie or par for each hole.

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Enough to always draw the Fiery War Axe.

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133 points · 1 month ago

electing a man who went bankrupt 6 times over as the president /r/whatcouldgowrong

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85 points · 1 month ago

Trump won’t care. He’s getting what he wanted anyway. By slapping tariffs on steel imports, he is forcing government buyers to buy from a very specific list of American steel companies. His buddies in corporate construction, and by extension himself, will receive a massive influx of public money pretty soon. He couldn’t give a fuck about anything else. There’s $17billion in public money to be stolen.

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133 points · 1 month ago

One thing thag boggles my mind, amid all the Russia controversy, how does this cheetoh still have the balls to say that, it’s not fair that Russia isn’t in the summit. WTF is going on?

And no one is doing a thing.

In any other kind of job, if you are under investigation for fraud or security breach you are immediately suspended. What job can you do more damage in if not US president if you are in fact guilty? Suspend the guy pending investigation. If it turns out he has in fact been a pawn of Putin, there is no way of knowing if this is all intentional sabotage

Yeap and guess what? Ashit pai’s rolled back net neutrality today as well. This administration is hell bound on making this country go back 20 years. I hope and pray that all his supporters pay the heaviest price. You reap what you sew.

You missed a zero there man

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At this point, the US deserves everything it’s about to get over the next 5 or 10 years. As a Canadian, I want the US to feel the pinch for two reasons:

  1. You deserve it for electing a guy who openly campaigned Scorched Earth Policies and said he was going to do all of this

  2. Maybe the American people will finally wake up and take their country back from mentally unstable conservatives


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