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SEC Quietly Puts Bitcoin ETF Proposals Back on the Table

179 comments
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level 1
230 points · 5 months ago · edited 5 months ago

If an ETF is approved, moonshot. Institutional investors will be able to invest on a massive scale, while a trusted 3rd party has custody of the coins. I don't want that crap, but they do! Any pension or hedge fund will be able to easily add BTC to their portfolio, which appears to be an uncorrelated asset-class. Even a 1% allocation would cause the price of BTC to absolutely skyrocket. Once the price starts rising at a fast rate, institutional FOMO could kick in, which would very likely allow McAfee to keep his dick.

Edit: I only saw the headline and didnt know this is a cash settled ETF, fuck that shit, its total garbage. An ETF that requires custody of BTC would cause moonshot, i will stand by that statement.

level 2

Just keep in mind this ETF comes in two forms: long and short, and both use futures. Neither ETF will purchase or hold actual bitcoin; it is cash settled.

Institutional investors can as easily short BTC as they buy the futures.

level 3

Yes and No. First of all, at this moment institutional holding or BTC is literally 0%. Yes some of them will short, but as long as they increase their weight to a positive number, the NET result is institutional buying bitcoin. Secondly, even the ETF is based on futures, price impact of purchasing the ETF will be transmitted to spot bitcoin price, otherwise there'll arbitrage opportunity. So all in all, bitcoin ETF will save McAfee's dick.

level 4
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 5

You underestimate the power of arbitragers. Any price difference between these products will be seen as no risk investment for arbitragers. As soon as arbitrage gain goes over interest, money will flow in the direction to decrease it. It will eventually come to spot buying or shorting. More money in the space will mean bigger price for bitcoin. Thinking in the extreme cases might help to understand. Lets say bitcoin is 1 dolar. These etfs can't hold big amounts of money then. You can't have a billion dolar etf product on a 21 million asset. If that would be the case someone would buy a lot of etfs like 100M dolars and then buy a lot of bitcoins with 10 million dolars and sell etf and free money.

level 6

Arbitrage works both ways, and if there is more volume shorting BTC on an ETF, you can be sure the arbitrageurs are gonna devalue BTC, not raise the price of the ETF to balance

level 7

Yes but total money in the space will be proportianal to market cap of bitcoin, no matter what. Arbitraging short is harder on spot market, because either you have to already have bitcoin or you have to loan it from hodlers (which will increase interest rates of bitcoin) and there is limited number.

level 8

Or use kraken

level 6
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 7

You wait the settlement date. It is called Cash-and-Carry-Arbitrage if future is priced more. I don't know the definition of opposite one maybe Term-Arbitrage. The trick is it should be more profitable than the interest of the period (interest rate*period).

Edit : It is called Reverse Cash-and-Carry-Arbitrage

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cash-and-carry-arbitrage.asp

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/reverse-cash-and-carry-arbitrage.asp

level 8
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 9

I know they can't use it to surpress bitcoin price long periods of time. It depends on how much money will flow to those. CBOE and CME Futures didn't deliver as much volume as predicted. But you never know. They open the doors to instutional FOMO but, doors being open doesn't always mean people will go through. But overall i am optimistic in the long term.

level 8
redditor for 3 months
2 points · 5 months ago

In the link you gave for c&c arbitrage this example is given:

Example of Cash-and-Carry Arbitrage

Consider the following example of cash-and-carry-arbitrage. Assume an asset currently trades at $100, while the one-month futures contract is priced at $104. In addition, monthly carrying costs such as storage, insurance and financing costs for this asset amount to $3. In this case, the trader or arbitrageur would buy the asset (or open a long position in it) at $100, and simultaneously sell the one-month futures contract (i.e. initiate a short position in it) at $104. The trader would then hold or carry the asset until the expiration date of the futures contract, and deliver the asset against the contract, thereby ensuring an arbitrage or riskless profit of $1.

I don't think the above example applies to the current BTC CME/CBOE futures contracts as they are paper settled with no delivery requirement for actual bitcoins. I'm in no way well versed in financial products but I am highly skeptical that approval of the ProShares ETF would materially impact BTCs price like you believe.

I believe that regulators and other officials are concerned that approval of a 'real ETF' like the Winkelvoss's which requires actual purchase and delivery of bitcoins has the potential of creating a huge BTC price spike with unknown consequences on the broader financial markets.

level 9
3 points · 5 months ago · edited 5 months ago

Who cares what are they settled at. You earn fiat or btc at the end. When settlement reached you might earn more fiat at future than you lose btc on spot or you might earn more btc on spot than you lose fiat on future. After the settlement you sell some of your gains on btc to cover up loses on future or you withdraw some of your fiat earnings to buy back btc you lose on spot.

Edit: You are right about Winkelvoss's ETF will have more direct effect. But even it is cash settled, arbitragers make it matter indirectly.

level 5
redditor for 5 weeks
5 points · 5 months ago

*you're

level 6

**youmst

level 7
redditor for 5 weeks
1 point · 5 months ago

***yourmom

level 5

Read the CBOE/CME bitcoin futures production spec file, and figure out how the settlement price of futures position is determined, and ask yourself if there is a link between ETF, futures, and Spot BTC prices, before coming back showing off your ignorance. Thank you!

level 6
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 7

Me 2

level 8

The fact it's not tied to spot is only good for 2 things, Hedging (legit) for future buys or sells and 2, manipulation.. These people already said they will 'tame' bitcoin.. not my words theirs. People are too naive. ETF's based on actual bitcoins is MORE SOUND but they want to just add derivative upon derivative to distort the market.

level 6

I think, while you seem knowledgeable, you are being a bit rude compared to the tone he used!

Thanks for your answers anyway

level 7

I am usually being more polite to polite people, and being more rude to rude people. You'll have to blame those made the first move. Blaming me doesn't make our world better. ; )

level 8
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 9

Check my reply somewhere below

level 10
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 7

CommentTooAddictive

level 6
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 7

only if you asked politely in the first place

level 5

One could have bought alts, exchange them into BTC and sell them, thus manipulating the alt price up and BTC down.

But that is not why BTC is falling.

level 6

The alt price would fall when you sold alts for BTC.

level 4
[deleted]
2 points · 5 months ago

Your second part is wrong though. ETFs don’t trade exactly at NAV. There are arbitrage opportunities for ETFs daily. ETFs have a redemption/creation feature, which typically ensures the share price doesn't stray significantly from the net asset value. If it’s well managed, the price of the ETF won’t affect bitcoin prices, but Bitcoin will affect ETF prices.

level 5

Let's ignore the cost of carry and other complexities in futures pricing and say fair value of futures (F) always = spot BTC price (B), and ETF price is E. All contract sizes are standardized to 1 BTC.

Now let's say E > F = B happened due to $ inflow to ETF. Arbitrageur will short N (borrow and sell) ETF @ E, buy N futures @ F to create N ETF and close her short position. Profit = N*(E-F). While she is buying futures, she will drive up futures price and making F > B, which is another opportunity (short F long B). So eventually $ inflow to ETF will drive up spot BTC price, other factors equal.

The opposite case is the same logic.

level 6
[deleted]
0 points · 5 months ago

The futures are cash settled and Bitcoin is not a commodity, so the rules you’re trying to apply doesn’t work. This whole idea is thrown out when the ETF creates more shares so the ETF price = underlying. For this to work, the futures would need to be settled with actual handling of BTC. It’s cash settled, so there’s much less influence on the price of BTC. What you’ve explained only with commodity futures that involve actual delivery of the underlying asset.

If the ETF did affect prices, its shares short sold to hell and kill BTC.

level 7

You don't really understand how futures market works. The arbitrage trade between ETF and futures has nothing to do with whether it's cash or physical settlement. I believe you have never traded futures by yourself. Learn more and think more, and you'll understand what I mean. Before that, don't trade futures as pros are going to crush you.

level 8
[deleted]
1 point · 5 months ago · edited 5 months ago

Actually, I do understand them, but I’m arguing against Bitcoin advocates so it’s not like you guys understand markets very well. But I’m in an echo chamber so it’s not like I’ll win through upvotes. I traded oil futures, taking a short position, and profited in March 2017...

And that’s not the point I was getting at nor related to what I said, so you didn’t prove anything here. Contracts for cash settled futures do not affect the spot price of the underlying assets, but do influence spot prices for physical delivery. There is empirical evidence to support both of these. An ETF on Bitcoin would has no effect on the spot price of Bitcoin because ETFs have share issuance provisions built in preventing market prices from straying too far from NAV. If the underlying benchmark is cash settled Bitcoin futures, then there is no affect on the Bitcoin spot from the ETF.

Yes you are correct that arbitrage trade between futures and ETFs has nothing to do with cash settlement or physical delivery. But an ETF with underlying futures as the benchmark that is cash settled would have no effect on the spot prices of the underlying asset. For example, prices for cash settled S&P 500 futures do not affect the S&P 500 index. S&P 500 futures prices are influenced by the underlying index, but can stray from the underlying index as speculators bet on whether their settlement price will be above or below the underlying index. The same could be said for VIX futures, which do not effect the underlying VIX index. This is also why S&P index funds hold the underlying and not futures...

Again, your previous example would work only if the underling futures prices were settled with actual delivery.

level 7

You literally have 0 idea how futures or options markets even works.

level 8
[deleted]
0 points · 5 months ago

LMAO big claim from a nobody. Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough...

I have a degree in finance and I am pulling from my fixed income and derivatives textbook from school. There is no documentation that cash settled futures affect or predict price discovery. However, it is documented futures on commodities do affect price discovery because there is physical delivery of the underlying asset. The futures price is then the best predictor of the future spot price upon settlement. For example, if you go long on pork belly to the expiration, you are delivered pork belly.

Further reading if you're interested: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/fut.21854 https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/157413/2/jaae608.pdf https://ideas.repec.org/p/anc/wpaper/394.html

level 4
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Seriously 1 Mil per BTC ? Has anyone calculated with the whole market cap by then? Reasonable ?

level 5
5 points · 5 months ago · edited 5 months ago

so what youve been thinking everyone who bought in 2013 set their target to 20k and now theyre out? lulz. bitcoin' aim is to take over the world money supply. 1 trillion or 100 trillion. No number is low unless that happens, and it doesn't look any close to happening right now as the value is still a tiny 7ish grand with a tiny 300b cap. do not mistake it, most of us know its going to happen without an inch of doubt, especially now, after seeing 2017

level 6
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

I’m impressed. Thank you

level 7
redditor for 3 months
2 points · 5 months ago

Keep in mind that the money supply keeps increasing since central banks cant stop the money printing machines

level 5

21 Trillion USD, much smaller than US+EU+JP+CN M2 money supply

level 6
redditor for 3 months
4 points · 5 months ago

I bought bitcoin at $850 and came to $1 million figure as being the low end of bitcoin value, higher end is if it replaces all global currency AND value is in the high tens of millions.

level 7

congrats my friend. I came in much later than you but have a similar estimation. It'll be a long road but it's inevitable. Let's hodl to the moon.

level 8
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Faith kept

level 6
redditor for 3 months
2 points · 5 months ago

Okay got your point ! I prefer John keep his dick

level 6

That's not much smaller, more like around the same size as. Global m2 is like what 50T?

level 4

First of all, at this moment institutional holding or BTC is literally 0%.

That is false.

level 5

no it's not false, check my reply to @workamonkey

level 6
2 points · 5 months ago

I can't find your dumb reply, but you're wrong

level 7

you made my day!

level 8

:)

seriously though -- if you have experience in the financial industry and crypto, please share your sources on the claim. I have first hand knowledge of institutions holding btc. would love to see how your sources contradict mine.

level 9

then just ctrl+F search "@workamonkey" and you'll find my reply

level 9
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

They dont have Bitcoin yet due to custodian issues.

level 4

institutional holding or BTC is literally 0%

That statement is literally 100% incorrect

level 5

Any evidence?

level 6

https://xbtprovider.com/ just one of many i see very regularly

There are loads of institutional Bitcoin and cryto funds, in December alone i read dozens of articles about funds being created solely for crypto or adding Bitcoin to certain funds. The fact you believe institutions hold "literally 0%" is insane.

level 7

to all of you @workamonkey @u1004 who pretend to know a lot about investment, current global fund asset under management is over 80 trillion USD (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-funds-aum/global-assets-under-management-hit-all-time-high-above-80-trillion-idUSKBN1CZ11B), while BTC's total market cap is just over 100 billion. Do your own math, even if ALL BTC are owned by funds, it's just 0.1/80 = 0.13%. So yes, it IS literally 0%! I don't care how many tinny tiny funds that hold BTC you can find, because their size don't matter at all. Please educate yourselves first before calling out other "insane" or "false". Thanks!

level 8

Lol, "funds can hold 100% of Bitcoin but that is still literally 0% and meaningless"

Yeah, solid logic mate, really smart, top notch, #genius at work...

level 3

I seriosly doubt the pension funds (the ones with literally massive amounts of money) will be shorting bitcoin with peoples retirement money. They will be wanting to go long.

level 4

There are people with Bitcoin 401k (pension fund), it's not new.

level 5

That's something different. I'm talking about pension funds like calpers ($300 billion in assets) so far they have not touched cryptos.

level 4
1 point · 5 months ago

They may use the short ETF for hedging, though.

level 5

For hedging what? Hedging implies they have a net long poaition.

level 6
redditor for 3 months
2 points · 5 months ago

Long Dogecoin, obviously.

level 3
redditor for 3 months
3 points · 5 months ago

Neither ETF will purchase or hold actual bitcoin; it is cash settled.

sure, there are more than 3 efts in the pipeline that will hold bitcoin.

level 3

False. Most ETFs do not use futures. They do buy and sell the underlying assets to form and remove creation units. The fact that you stated this and it got upvoted is a huge swing of misinformation.

level 4

Have you read the article? It clearly specifies the ETF uses CBOE futures, and it clearly specifies the proposed rule change only applies to ETFs holding cryptocurrency futures (ie with the rule change, actual asset backed crypto ETFs would still be against exchange rules).

level 2

Ah yes, the old McAfee indicator.

level 3

McAfee Indickator!

level 3
redditor for 3 days
1 point · 5 months ago

Only tji

level 3

Classic.

level 3
level 4

@officialmcafee

2017-07-17 19:02 +00:00

@maguraaa if not, I will eat my dick on national television.


This message was created by a bot

^[Contact creator]^[Source code]^[Donate to keep this bot going]^[Read more about donation]

level 2
redditor for 3 months
4 points · 5 months ago

which appears to be an uncorrelated asset-class

really? says who?

level 3

The market has been saying that for about 5 years now.

level 3

says empirical behavior

level 4
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

got an academic paper to link then, bruv?

level 5

who you callin' bruv, guv ?

level 2

If XXXX, moonshot!

We get about 100 posts like this on this sub EVERY DAY. You know what happens when XXXX finally comes true?

Nothing. Every single time.

level 2

And then we will again experience a parabolic rise, followed by a decline.

level 2

Maybe we will get a speculative run-up just from this.

level 2
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

ole johnny just went from nix to midnight

level 2

When Bull Run?!

level 2
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Safe, its safe. McAffees dick.

level 2

But we already have a BTC ETC, which is traded on Nasdaq Sthlm.

level 2

Operation keep hot dog in bun

level 2

This is a joke, right? No pension or hedge fund is going to invest in bitcoin. It’s antithetical to every principle of investing. The largest “bitcoin hedge fund” is astonishingly small (couple hundred million), while most aren’t really hedge funds.

level 3

Bitcoin is a perfect hedge against inflation. Prices are soft now because we are in deflation. This will end as the economy begins to struggle in q2 q3

level 4

That’s nonsense. Inflation doesn’t cause the price of bitcoin to drastically go up. It goes up the same as everything else does relating to an inflationary dollar.

No institutional investor is going to put money into bitcoin. It’s simply not a reasonable investment strategy by people with a college degree and financial sense. If an ETF comes out it will be targeted at the low information investor that gets financial news from CNBC.

level 5

"With a college degree" lol.

Yup its the bottom feeders who buy etfs.

Say hi to the folks on whatever planet you are on

level 5
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Yeah and bitcoin "nerd monopoly money" would never reach 20K. Welcome to the new world dude. Old rules don't apply anymore.

level 5
redditor for 3 months
0 points · 5 months ago

Lol, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

level 2

oh come on

level 2

That's also what people said when options happened. I'm wouldn't hold my breath. Price will come back when we see LN adoption.

level 3

Where can I trade options on bitcoin?

level 4

sorry meant cme/cboe futures. I think you can trade options on deribit.com, but I haven't tried.

level 1

Why not approve the Winklevos ETF first? They are working on it for years already, experienced in the industry and own a bitcoin exchange. In that case we would have an ETF that is backed by real BTC, a proper way to start I guess. Now we get sucked in the bankers paper asset market from the beginning. I start to believe the manipulation story more and more......

level 2
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Unluckiest billionaires ever

level 2
redditor for 5 weeks
1 point · 5 months ago

Because they're too closely tied to the gemini exchange.

level 2

deribit.com

THIS^

level 1

Let's start a save McAfee dick campaign lol

level 2

I'd suck my own dick for $100k a tweet like he gets🤣🤣

level 2

McAfee`s dick matter

level 1

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot)


The US Securities and Exchange Commission has quietly begun considering two Bitcoin ETF proposals, public documents show.

ProShares Bitcoin ETF and ProShares Short Bitcoin ETF would each hold Bitcoin futures contracts, providing retail investors with the ability to indirectly invest in the flagship cryptocurrency - or bet against it - through a familiar investment product.

Last month, Chris Concannon, president of CBOE, penned a letter to the SEC asking them to consider Bitcoin ETF proposals on a case-by-case basis rather than as a product class.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Bitcoin#1 SEC#2 ETF#3 fund#4 proposed#5

level 1

Cash settled futures are a negative value to Bitcoin long term. It's much better for Bitcoin if we get derivatives that are settled in Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies.

level 2

Andreas was confident that the opposite was going to be the case...

level 3

I think Andreas is a genius and he is right with the caveats that he explains, but I think its very important that cash settled futures do not become the status quo because they are devaluing bitcoin compared with bitcoin settled derivatives. Collateralizing financial assets with bitcoin adds demand to bitcoin, increasing its price.

level 2

I think this has to happen first before derivatives due to the often cited reasons of volatility and lack of liquidity. This will help mature the BTC market.

level 2

While you are in general right, lets not forget about one very, very critical aspect:

A huge factor in the price of bitcoin is the way the state treats it. I.e. no matter how popular bitcoin gets, outright ban would harm the price enormously.

Having active futures market in the US (and ETF via that, whatever) aligns interests of some very powerful people (at least the owners of CME/CBOE/NYSE) with the success of bitcoin.

I.e. while cash-settled futures might be bad for some assets (gold) it is not necessary that simple with a unique asset that still might face regulatory threat.

level 1

Worked well for silver and gold.

level 1

This is just the CBOE trying to create some demand for their futures product of bitcoin. The worst part is that it is designed for retail investors to get exposure to bitcoin. Here is the sad part. The retail investor has already signed up with Coinbase, Gemini, or Bitflyer. Don’t these guys know no one wants to trade on full faith and credit. Just own the real thing.

level 2

You're right about the motives for why the cboe is pushing the SEC to get this done -- it does benefit them. However, this would allow for 401k's and pensions to be able to invest in btc if they want to. Right now they can't. You can't add "coinbase" to your portfolio or fund like you can with an exchange traded asset.

I'd also like to note for OP, this news is weeks old and a money maker for CCNdotCOM which is a coin pushing site with little journalistic value.

level 2

Don’t these guys know no one wants to trade on full faith and credit. Just own the real thing.

You're absolutely wrong about this. Many, many retail investors are not going to use unregulated exchanges. Especially after so many highly publicized exchanges going under, like MtGox.

level 3

Coinbase has over 15 mllion users. Gemini has a few million. Bitflyer has a few mllion. Localbitcoins has a few million. Now ask again if retail is going into the futures market. And if they do it will be Bitmex a crypto exchange for futures. Bitcoin has had futures for a long time. CME and CBOE are just late to the game.

level 1

Shhhh....

level 1
redditor for 3 months
7 points · 5 months ago

This will further the market manipulation that has been suspected by the original futures that opened at CME in December. Banking combines cannot regulate bitcoin so they will try and control it via derivates markets.

They’re either going to fud it until it’s so damn cheap everyone sells and then pump or try and kill it off slowly

level 2
redditor for 5 weeks
4 points · 5 months ago

If its soo cheap I'll buy until I own all of them ;)

level 2
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Obviously they're working to kill it softly. They'll get rich doing it too, one hand washes the other.

level 2

Using a derivative market to kill bitcoin cannot work.

You can increase it volatility with manipulation, but that will be extremely expensive.

Unlike gold and silver, you cannot counterfeit bitcoin electronically.

level 1
redditor for 6 weeks
2 points · 5 months ago

Price suppression, same shit as with commodities

level 2

Gold and Silver all over again.

level 1

for what purpose?

level 1
redditor for 3 months
2 points · 5 months ago

Do you really believe that this will happen? I think if this proposal goes through, banksters will be easily manipulating bitcoin prices. Don't you think?

level 1

'quietly' is such a weasel word

level 2

Makes you think though. What are they trying to hide?

If they weren't up to something, why wouldn't they do this loudly with their dicks out like any hardworking god fearing American would?

level 1
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

..sounds interesting..hope it has good results.:)

level 1

Good news for McAfee. :)

level 1
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

If the stock market fails to deliver..is this a good or bad from a bitcoin ETF perspective. Is there a correlation possible?

level 1

I bet they got a confirmation/"suggestion" from the NSA that they've completely sweeped the enitre block chain and can trace everything

level 1

Is there an update anywhere on where things stand on a "real" bitcoin ETF... ie an ETF that actually holds bitcoin? The above article has to do with a bitcoin ETF which would hold futures contracts, not actual btc.

level 1
[deleted]
1 point · 5 months ago

It might be worth noting that the US Government actually holds a lot of bitcoin. They have seized many dark markets and arrested multiple people who had a lot of bitcoin.

If you commit a bitcoin crime the government is more lenient on you if you surrender wallets.

level 2

They liquidated the majority of those to wealthy investors ages ago, like Tim Draper.

level 2

Pretty sure they auction off 100% of seized BTC

level 1
1 point · 5 months ago · edited 5 months ago

Good news, finally...kind of... this could help tame Bitcoin's volatlity

level 1

I rember, a year ago ppl where predicting the price would go up to 3500$ if the bitcoin ETF would be accepted...

level 1

ETF is....?

"Exchange Traded Fund"?

level 1

yes

level 2

👍 I smell something starting to brew. It’s just a matter of time folks!!!

level 3

this could very well be the bottom....or not LOL

level 4

BTC made you a bottom

level 5

Hot, how much doge to get a video?

level 5

damn, you triggered my fire alarm

level 6

Username.. Checks out?

level 1

That would explain all the big OTC buying in the last couple days.

level 2
[deleted]
4 points · 5 months ago

Where do you see this ?

level 3
redditor for 3 months
5 points · 5 months ago

You cant. This is why the stock market is a scam, everything important happens OTC

level 1

ARKK is an ETF that holds Bitcoin.

level 2

No it isn't

level 3
redditor for 3 months
1 point · 5 months ago

Yes it does

level 3

...Yes it is? I'm looking at it right now, Bitcoin Investment Trust. .58% weighting.

level 4

Link

level 5

http://pe.newriver.com/summary.asp?doctype=ann&cid=AMTDPS&fid=00214Q104

Page 13 it gives a rundown of the web x.0 etf (ARKW) that ARKK holds.

https://www.zacks.com/funds/etf/ARKW/holding

Tab 4 says Bitcoin Investment Trust, Tab 5 says Bitcoin Gold Receivable

level 3

Ark bridges , it isn't an etf.

level 1
-5 points · 5 months ago(22 children)
level 2

Why would anyone buy this instead of just buying bitcoin,

For legal purposes, for tax purposes, for custodial purposes.

level 3
-9 points · 5 months ago(0 children)
level 4

He does. Most Hedge fund can own an ETF but not a crypto.

level 5

It's still wrong and not the way to do it. derivatives suck

level 2
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 3
-30 points · 5 months ago(0 children)
level 4
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 5
3 points · 5 months ago

That person is clearly trolling. No point in taking them seriously.

level 5
-20 points · 5 months ago(0 children)
level 6
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 7
-16 points · 5 months ago(0 children)
level 8
Comment deleted5 months ago
level 9
redditor for 3 months
17 points · 5 months ago

fuck, /u/fangio2verstappen just got destroyed.

level 10

I think /u/fangio2verstappen does have a bit of a point since this is Bitcoin we are talking about. Remember that Bitcoin is not a stock, and should not be thought of, or treated in the same way as a stock. It's ultimate goal is to entirely replace fiat currencies around the world. I really don't like the thought of federal regulators getting involved because I think they will try to manipulate things to their exclusive advantage, exactly the opposite of what Satoshi Nakamoto would have wanted.

level 8

what if... the bitcoin etf tracks the bitcoin index...

just like... gold etfs track the gold index...

and... volatility etfs track the volatility index...

lol

level 9

Exactly. On top of that, an ETF is simply a wrapper and doesn't HAVE to track an index. There are actively-managed ETFs that don't track indices.

level 2
4 points · 5 months ago · edited 5 months ago

This is NOT even a bitcoin ETF (like Winkelevi were proposing), this is a ETF for bitcoin futures aka something cringeworthy.

level 3

Very cringe inducing. I think bitcoin investors want this so that their investment in bitcoin goes up due to unassuming institutional investors. That fact just exposes the fraud in the their beliefs. You have convictions? Have the courage to see them through. Don't pass off your idiocy onto greater idiots.

level 4
redditor for 3 months
5 points · 5 months ago

Damn troll get a life

level 2

Just like an ETF for just gold makes no fucking sense? Oh wait

level 3

Not sure if he's a troll or just stupid. I'm leaning towards just being dumb and mad.

There's plenty of ETFs the don't just track indices. Like, it would take 2 seconds of googling to figure this out. There are goddamned Soybean ETFs.

level 4

It's impressive how confident he is in his ignorance, isn't it? Reminds me of a certain orange clown I keep seeing in nightmare day dreams.

level 1
redditor for 2 weeks
0 points · 5 months ago

Hi, I feel that old time hodlers like myself feel preety good about TIO project vision. I feel TIO project can deliver on global scale! https://trade.io/

level 1

Futures? Garbage

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