all 80 comments

[–]thirdsin1 of 200o sitting logged off in UALX-3 somewhere 114 points115 points  (17 children)


[–][deleted] 43 points44 points  (1 child)

The post looks a bit suspicious in some parts and still gets 800+ upvotes, so I thought I'd give my perspective. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily right though.

[–]smartdots 6 points7 points  (0 children)

still gets 800+ upvotes


[–]smartdots 6 points7 points  (13 children)

It's a possibility. But I don't see this post's argument to be very convincing either. What's so surprising about taking 1/3 of bounties in a region? Just because it "sounds" so big? The regions he mentioned are pretty dead themselves.

[–]SvaraEirLeague of Unmasterful Line Pilots 12 points13 points  (6 children)

the only thing this post should say is "the guy probably exaggerated his income rates by 10-20%". OP doesn't understand that in this situation certain regions basically end up functioning more like private resorts or the gated communities of suburbia, nor how dead most of null normally is.

regions like this function less as actual "regions" and more as barren backwaters unattractive for even roaming, with two or three very tucked away and usually well-surveilled pockets which are safely and prolifically exploited by the residents. an "entire region", thus, is effectively a handful of systems. the "region" itself, and the regions around it, matter insofar as being boring empty space that guarantee a backwater status, rather than being in itself "bottable space", especially since fairly expensive shit's being used.

that's "the nyxes", or what was already in full swing. now "the gilas" don't follow these rules. the gilas are expendable, do use up a lot more space, etc. but that doesn't mean 'more' of the region is being used. the disproportionate income generation by one end-user is just being distributed across lighter ships and more systems.

[–]smartdots 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tbh Gilas' isk/h is bottlenecked by its dps, unlike the nyx. It's entirely okay to put more than 1 Gila in one anom since his bots are doing active ratting which doesn't require rat aggro.

[–]TemplarDane 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Could be maybe he was counting skill farming in the equation?

[–]SvaraEirLeague of Unmasterful Line Pilots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

that's actually a great point!

[–]Hairpins_BlueprintNorthern Coalition. 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Add NPC constelations with NPC stations to allow ez Transport and war staging, All problems solved as all of those regions will see war insred of being gated community. No fucking idea why ccp has not added them already

[–]yamamotosuhara 1 point2 points  (1 child)

...and they fucked up uni wh wich provided nice exits to deep null secs

[–]SvaraEirLeague of Unmasterful Line Pilots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

oh holy fucking shit yes they did.

when uiWH first came out they had like maybe 5-6 connections each. then, in the same patch that command destroyers were released, it turned into this for the full set of five systems (or, if you please, reformatted as a total tally - compare with e.g. current list of Thera systems).

from what i understand, they're now effectively dead - three or four connections per, one of each per system being a c2.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I am aware that we're talking about wastlands. I roamed there a bit as a Null novice almost 1 year ago. Quite neat if you can do exploration in peace. Almost had a heart attack though, when I accidently landed on a POS and then 3 Gilas and 2 Rattles warped in simultaneously. So there's no doubt that these guys bot in these dead regions, and there's no reason why that should have changed in the past months.

What I find hard to believe is that these alleged numbers don't raise red flags at CCP. A region with very little all round activity but considerable ratting ticks? A 3k alliance living there but 1/3 of the ratting income is generated by 10 characters in basically one pocket? How does that compare to regions that are actually active, maybe have twice the amount of systems and are famous for some of the most dedicated krabs in the game (aka Delve)? How does it compare to the home regions of other big alliances?

You'd think that investigating 10 characters that generate a suspiciously disproportionate amount of ratting ticks wouldn't be that hard? And the Gila numbers make it look even worse.

Now, I obvously don't know what CCP are doing. Assuming they are doing anything at all regarding bots, numbers like that must trigger some kind of investigation at the very least. But who knows, maybe they really are full of shit.

[–]BadRandolf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're assuming there's a team of people at CCP with the job description "find and ban bots". In reality I think it's closer to 2 guys who spend 90% of their time dealing with hacked accounts and god knows what else, who do what they can in the remaining 10%. And most of the time that means going after the low hanging fruit, like auto-detected ISBoxers, not investigating individual players. At least that's the impression I got at Fanfest.

I appreciate the work you put in to double check this stuff, but we (Hotline) roamed Omist almost every day back then and I can tell you it was absolutely dead outside of the ratting pockets. Even Dotlan showed no activity outside a few systems, and each of those systems had at least one botting super in it whenever we'd visit. I think there may have been some masochist German corp who did mining ops there from time to time, but that was really it. I'd be really surprised if those botting supers didn't account for a big percentage of the bounties coming out of Omist.

[–]Korchagin 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Omist is still at 1.4B in the last MER. The one guy who made a third of the money suddenly stopped?

"Already replaced!"

Edit: One econimic number is reinforcing his story, though: The PLEX price is lower than 1 year ago. This never happened before in the history of Eve. Prices were falling sharply during March and are moving sideways since then. "Normal" was a steady increase during the year and some decrease around December.

[–]NaxirianMiner 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Plex prices are lower because there's been crap tons of sales on Galaxy packs etc. You were able to buy 3 months of gametime, 2 multiple pilot training certificates, some SoE skins, some skill extractors and 1100 plex for £40. The prices dropped sharply right after that happened.

[–]Korchagin 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yes, the drop in March can be explained by the Galaxy pack. Such a drop is not a notable event. But the lack of recovery in the aftermath is, in my opinion. The expected effect of a sale is a sharp drop in prices, followed by a quick recovery. Here we don't see one, and on top of that the very old long term trend was broken. Prices go sideways, even dipped below the March low for a few days in June.

This points towards a long term cause. A notable drop in PLEX using accounts without a corresponding drop in players who pay cash for PLEX would be such a cause. Of course there's not only this one guy, CCP also did a ban wave in the meantime.

[–]NaxirianMiner 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There have been almost constant sales of galaxy packs from various vendors. CCP themselves had them in sale in March but Green Man Gaming, Humble Bundle and Amazon have all had them on sales as well at different times.

[–]monty845 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why would someone do such a thing?!

[–]dodovtBlack Legion. 46 points47 points  (3 children)

If you took a stroll around Omist you’d see it’s a dead ass region. Back when he got caught I had just roamed the region a few days before during eutz and ustz and I found maybe 5 characters around 10 systems. It’s pretty possible he got 1/3rd of the bounties to himself and the other few dudes got the rest split between them. Remember that characters in alliance mean nothing since most can be sp farms, I unsubbed alts or people who quit the game.

Looking at the MER means nothing if you don’t see the reality of the region. It’s a tiny region with a few good pockets and mostly dead systems.

[–]IsItSafeToMinePandemic Legion 15 points16 points  (0 children)

+1. I used to roam there whenever I got a good wormhole connection in my cloaky/nully T3Cs with hyperspatials and I barely got any kills because it was a fucking ghost town with random systems here and there where supers just ratted with me in local and looking at them. I play during autz/eutz and sometimes ustz on weekends.

[–]SvaraEirLeague of Unmasterful Line Pilots 13 points14 points  (0 children)

yup, and then you have to take into account that one super = 6-10VNI / 8-13gila, etc.

it's shocking to see, STILL, how little people understand about how dead a null region can be, how disproportionately a turboautist can act especially now with sp farming / injecting, and most of all what happens when those two conditions marry and provide free rein

on one hand it's basically a rule that people overstate their isk/h but the fact that even a year ago OP thought it was "just the nyxes" and implies there's some sort of bullshitting going on beyond, what, +10-20% real income rate, is just retarded

[–]papierrkwg bear 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Pretty much, well, ive been living there from 2014 with various breaks, and i can say, that over the time its gotten more dead. Its more of a retirement home, you can log in, rat in peace for an hour, talk to your buddies and log off. Its what i do, get some isk spend it in horde. If you watch local and intel channel, its very unlikely to die, unless a worehole appears with hunters jumping out of it. Its a dead end on the very far end of the map, even jump freights have a lot jumps to make and cost is pretty big. I would say its might be possible that the guys has some truth to what he is saying, but since im not russian, i rarely bother to translate the alliance chat(but to be frank at least half of the ally chat is just 10/10 sell contracts)

[–]iwokeupwithgillsL A Z E R H A W K S 17 points18 points  (14 children)

One thing I think gives creedence to the russian bot guy is my own experience, seeing a shitload of gila bots in feythabolis over the past few weeks. When chat was broken we murderzoned a whole pocket of em a few days ago.

The one thing I've noticed about roaming in nullsec is: its bots, all the way down. Every region has em, some are worse than others, but botting is a real epidemic.

[–]Remove_Borscht 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I live in a hole with a nullsec static, and as frustrating as bots are, I’m not sure they’re much more frustrating than your average dickless nullsec dweller that will resolutely refuse to undock without a coalition level FC and supercap support. The only people that reliably bring fights are NPC space vagrants and the Chinese.

[–]SylvaritiusCircle-Of-Two 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Try fade. I haven't seen people roaming around that we don't try to kill. Though, we are a bit busy right now.

[–]RidiculouslyFarOut 6 points7 points  (1 child)

dude are you even aware of how fucking dead those regions were back then. i'm surprised he wasn't getting more than 30% of the total region income

the 6trillion number does seem like something he is just pulling out of his ass though

[–]Ov3rdose_EvETriumvirate. 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Its his theoretical income on a 300x23/7 iptime which is quite unrealistic. But having 70% of that would be a defensive calculation and STILL a fuckton

[–]Bandalon 5 points6 points  (0 children)

good post, hope this all develops with additional facts, figures and insights

[–]rake483 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"Even CCP would smell that rat." They probably do, but are they doing something against it? I doubt it. CCPs response to botting scandals is always "We do take botting serious. Look we banned 9999 botters last month." A number that no one can verify. Meanwhile, it takes YEARS of complaints till CCP changes their policies to make it harder for botters, i.e. until recently it was possible that botters transfer or sell all their SP after the 1st warning. There was no real punishment for botters! Players warned CCP about this when skill trading was announced, yet it took 3 years and several botting scandals (with lots of pressure from the players) to change it.

[–]Gorski_CarCSM 9-11[🍰] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

People Always overy estimate their isk/h

[–]Ov3rdose_EvETriumvirate. -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Just like penis size..if your back is bleeding after the fact you did fine v0v

[–]Olmeca_Gold 11 points12 points  (6 children)

We can see that the planned/extrapolated income of 6 T is rather unrealistic compared to actual numbers from other regions/alliances.

MER is irrelevant. Goons farm about 14t and mine about 14t with 40k accounts (not 30k btw with TNT etc., well also perhaps I should have included Fountain and Querious as well but lazy to check) , but they mostly use real players who don't farm 24/7 (and many of the accounts are not allocated to anomaly farming to begin with). He gave his 6T number assuming he runs 300 Gilas 24/7 for 30 days. If you calculate from 30 m/hr, it checks out. Ofc in reality it will be less. But not that much less either. So don't let the 300 vs. 40k accounts ratio throw you off.

PS: There are similar, often Chinese/Russian looking accounts in Delve. Buttloads of ventures broadcasting and so on. They blend in really well since there are real people/targets all over as well. But I wonder how much of the glorious Delve income comes from them, whom Goons are even forbidden to report.

[–]Dr_thri11Pilot is a suspect 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I think the take home here is it would be unlikely for a singe player to generate 1/3 of the npc bounties in a region especially if literally his entire alliance were using bots.

[–]Olmeca_Gold 8 points9 points  (3 children)

I mean as far as I can see the only justification for that claim in the OP is "look even Goons farm 14t so this guy alone can't farm 6t with 300 accounts". That was wrong. Because he technically could farm 6t/mo with 300 gilas under ideal circumstances. Easy bought off renter lords, nobody disturbing the gilas, nobody making a fuss over an entire region of gila bots and so on. If he tried, the circumstances wouldn't be ideal, but they could be close to ideal. Even half that money is good money.

[–]Dr_thri11Pilot is a suspect -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

You're missing the point; according to the MER the total for Feythabolis was less than that.

[–]Olmeca_Gold 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Yeah, because he didn't really go operational with 300 Gilas, did he?

[–]XenoanthropusTriumvirate. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

could have been wherever he wanted, really. buy some injectors, roll a corp of 20 dudes, rent a handful of systems with them. They don't make as much as ratting in your own space but it's still profitable at end of month.

Could you imagine the sum total of real people in KWG alliance being 1?

[–]Paledan987Cloaked 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Depends which region: 1/3 of the npc bounties in Delve is huge, 1/3 of the npc bounties in Omnist isn't nearly as big.

Also, his whole point was that people, and CCP, would not realize his alliance was mostly bots (he'd take in regular renters for the human touch, I guess).

Finally, a lot of the figures he posts are theoretical, like what he might make with his 300 Gilas running perfectly. He never got those 300 Gilas running, and in practice they wouldn't have farmed 23 hours a day anyway because they'd be interrupted by random travellers, explorers, roamers (the more npc kills show up on dotlan, the more likely you are to have roamers), and the like.

Still impressive numbers, even if you halve his estimates.

[–]rammangstDARKNESS. 3 points4 points  (5 children)

How do you make 30mil tick on a gila..

[–]Xavier_WThe Kronos Ritual 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Its not a tale ccp security would tell you

[–]fireitnowAngel Cartel 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It was per hour not ticks

[–]rammangstDARKNESS. 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ohh I see thank you

[–]Mar5hy_eve 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think you are overthinking it. I'm pretty sure the story is true. I have seen the gilas in feytha. They always seemed to break when local chat broke. See here https://i.imgur.com/459q2lQ.png

Maybe the numbers are a little exaggerated. I'm 99% sure its true.

[–]ocilar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All those names also look like they are pulled straight out of a name generator :p

[–]Boundterra 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The million dollar question would be how the fucking hell doesn't CCP knows there is a BOT corp?

[–]shutup001 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I find some things a little off with this. Firstly, as others pointed out, he seems to have inflated the figures about what he was actually earning from it.

Secondly and more interestingly, back when those 8-9 Nyx were slaughtered, I recall a forum post from someone claiming that the Nyx's infact belonged to the leader of Pirate.

Well, this botter has now admitted he was gifting Pirate 300 billion isk per month. Why would he do that? It doesn't make sense. That 300 billion was also probably the bulk of his Nyx income.

So how this seems to me, is he probably was in fact sending the botted isk to his main in Pirate, and now he has made this elaborate story about a botter, who has decided to quit the game and wants to expose the operation he was involved in.

It's interesting, all except the fact that it doesn't make sense that he would send 300 billion isk a month to Pirate, out of the goodness of his heart. That is probably the bulk of what he was getting.

I just get the feeling this is a story of facts plus some lies in order to hide the real truth, that the character receiving the 300 billion isk per month was in fact his main character. Not some random that he sent monthly payments of 300 billion isk...

[–]IamSoGreedy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Whats the point?

[–]bakamoney 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah the Gila was theoretical.

He said he could have 100 gilas not that he had.

b) Just cause he could run scripts 24*7 doesnt meanm he did

[–]yamamotosuhara 0 points1 point  (0 children)

he didnt rat 24h/7, take account of neutrals jumping in systems etc etc.anyway ccp need to do something about this anoms in a era of supers and titans ratting not to forgot afk vni and smart bombing machs...pve is so out of time now

[–]Valorfist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alas for peaceful folk everywhere. It is an enormous task to convince people the evil folk with evil intentions will commit evil deeds.

[–]RelentlessPolygons 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ratters saying they get ticks higher than the do. Oh the terror

[–]stsh10 -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Exaggerated or not it's been made pretty clear whats going on in Feyth, and if you think Test wasn't in on it, or at the least conveniently looking the other way while having their hands out you're pretty naive

[–][deleted]  (1 child)


    [–]Ripper_Jack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    CCP has said in the past they will confiscate alliance monies if they come from illicit means.

    [–]Ov3rdose_EvETriumvirate. 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Few people would say no to an offer like that, when people get what they want/need/desire the critical thinking falls short at least in the moment and atleast for some people

    [–]klyith 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    or at the least conveniently looking the other way

    every since alliance that rents space does this

    [–]quam_kodiz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    They paid alot of people to leave them alone and everyone knew what they were up too.

    Tri for instance got isk from them to leave them alone.

    [–]stsh10 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I'm not saying it's their job to police the space, and I'm not trying to justify it by saying "oh every alliance does it", I'm not trying to point fingers at Tri like some little bitch, I'm just trying to point out hypocrisy. All People do is bitch about drone lands being full of botters. When the fact of the matter is they just want to avert attention from their own botters....

    [–]liszt_is_a_godcynojammer btw -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    Inb4 CCP manipulates MER data to make botting seem less prevalent rip plex prices

    [–]Paledan987Cloaked 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    There's an obvious way they could do that, please don't give them any idea about firing new people, the game's development is understaffed enough already.

    [–]irwissOn auto-pilot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    but uh this mobile game idea! it will be great success and diversifying the investments!

    [–]stuartx13ORE -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Thank TEST for trying to get out of this shit.

    [–]swiftwilly321 -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

    ELI5 why is the game in deep trouble if it is true ?

    Does it mean those average 40 k eve total players is something much less ?

    [–]iwokeupwithgillsL A Z E R H A W K S 8 points9 points  (4 children)

    Botting players are earning isk 24-7, with no risk and no actual gameplay. First - it causes inflation, making the value of YOUR time / isk drop (running a site is essentially worth less for you, the more bots there are). Second, it can cause collapse of the entire economy (as happened on Serenity, where the chinese botters completely shit up the econonmy, and alliances had so much money that they bulldozed their way across the galaxy until it was one big blue donut).

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    One thing I'd add: If one guy can make 60% of the ratting ticks of a whole region without being caught, what can we actually expect from CCP's bot hunting skills? What are they even doing? Why do they even bother/pretend?

    [–]IMightBeYourSaviorSniggWaffe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Ofc they care, but hiring extra employee to hunt bots generates only costs :D

    [–]bardghost_IsuJustanotherscrublord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Also of note, Had the theoretical 300 Accounts in gila's actually been implemented, Even with a reduced earnings such as 3 Trill, That is still more ISK in 2 months than was paid to the attacking groups in WWB.

    He has more than enough ISK there to fund wars and buy regions, It isn't being used for that, But Is just sat in a wallet ready for some random shenanigans

    [–]trooper_an -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Are you seriously THAT stupid? Poor boi