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Posted byRenzo Gracie Mexico12 days ago

[spoiler] Tucking the chin in is not an effective defense

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This finish made me cringe - you can see his jaw buckle.

Wrestling | Judo Brown Belt3 points·12 days ago

Yup, something moved before he tapped.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster15 points·12 days ago

I always teach my students to crush the jaw if their opponent tucks the chin in on the RNC, they get the classic “I tapped but it wasn’t a choke” every once in a while when rolling with other people, but at least they know to not put themselves in trouble like this. Don’t tuck your chin in guys, maybe just to buy a little time but that’s it.

the classic “I tapped but it wasn’t a choke”

To be fair, some of us say that just because we think the other guy is curious -- same reason I might ask, "Was that a crank or a choke?" even though I know perfectly well that cranks work.

Nowadays I try to avoid saying anything like that unless my partner has shown interest in that data.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster11 points·12 days ago

If you are giving legit feed back it’s okay, even when someone says it to protect their ego it’s okay because we all have been there at some point, and it’s normal to feel that way. I just try to discourage my students of fooling themselves into thinking a certain kind of submission is worth less than other only to get reality checked in competition or injured really badly like in the video.

That's the right attitude, I think.

South American Ground Karate2 points·12 days ago

i tell dudes "it was a legit tap, but it was on my chin."

the sweet spot of a choke has been hard for me to find; i thought i had a clean choke the other night and the guy looked pissed like i just cranked the hell out of his jaw. i give feedback so my partner can learn, im sure it comes across as "ego protection" to some guys insert shrug emoji

4 points·12 days ago

But if they have your back and you're handfighting before they sink in the RNC, tucking your chin makes it harder for them to get the choke right? Or am I a silly white belt

Perfectly reasonable question. Perhaps the best way to explain this is that there are a lot of submissions in BJJ that people say are not "legit." Some of those submissions are likely to result in you exposing yourself to danger or sacrificing a dominant position. You should stay away from those. Other of those submissions, however, are extremely painful and potentially injurious, but they are rather easy to neutralize or escape. It is worthwhile to add some submissions in this latter category to your repertoire, because some of those subs force your opponent to do something that will open up a "legit" submission. If I, having a reasonable amount of arm strength, take your back and you tuck your chin to defend the RNC, I can submit you by crushing your jaw and/or breaking a number of your teeth. To prevent this, you react by removing your jaw from danger... and exposing your neck. Tucking the chin is not an effective defense to the RNC, because in the worst case you are going to go home with a fractured jaw and in the best case you are just delaying the choke while picking up some jaw pain along the way.

See, I spar almost always with other white belts, so I guess ive never been in danger of getting my jaw smashed so tucking in my chin has been effective so far when handfighting but ill definitely keep that in mind as I continue to roll against stronger and better opponents

what about "on the streets"?

chin tuck might be a good idea - at least you wont go out, and the guy has to let go eventually

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster7 points·12 days ago

Problem is that you can still go out with the ticker chin, I don’t think it is advisable in most cases.

Well if he breaks your jaw, then I imagine defending the choke gets a lot harder.

You'll still go out. Your jaw will press on your carotids just fine. You also get the bonus points for possibly having your jaw wired shut. It's not a legitimate defense in any circumstance.

https://youtu.be/85GxcPvtYBE

They did it with fedor vs a python.

Python got 40lbs of pressure Fedor got 500lbs

That python's not even close to his weightclass though. Can you imagine a 240 lb. python squeezing you?

Pacific Top Team - InFighting1 point·12 days ago
CATCHWRESTLER6 points·12 days ago

Partner: "You got me but that wasnt a choke"

Me: "Yeah, that was a bad idea sticking your chin in there"

GF Team5 points·12 days ago·edited 12 days ago

Davi Ramos is such a beast. His back take was so smooth

Edit: Highlight video

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster4 points·12 days ago

Loved that kimura back take

BJJ & Luta Livre1 point·12 days ago

Kimura Trap FTW

I tried this one of the first times on the mat, because I'd seen it in MMA fights. Jesus christ, I thought my jaw/chin was going to explode or crack off. Never doing that again...I'm total shit anyway so doesnt't matter lol.

I heard huge ass Neil Melanson say one time he had this happen to him and his jaw is still not the same to this day. If that dude's jaw can't withstand it, nobody's can lol.

My jaw is shit, some judo 3rd Dan squeezed my face in some way too and I thought it dislocated.

So you need over 200 kg of force to crush a skull. I wonder what kind of force a RNC applies to break the jaw. That looked nasty. I wish there was an instrument available like a grip tester to check your RNC force!

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster3 points·12 days ago·edited 12 days ago

I’m not sure of the scientific accuracy of it, but I’m pretty sure there was this tv show where they measured the pressure of the RNC from a pro MMA fighter they also compared it to the pressure of some kind of big ass snake( probably a boa), I’ll try to look for it.

Edit: here is the video https://youtu.be/AgbwP6Hn-lM 163lbs of force when it comes to BJ Penn

Cool link. As somebody who has been choked out, that was very interesting to see what happens from a scientific point of view. The point where the heart reboots the brain could potentially be dangerous I think.

3 points·12 days ago·edited 12 days ago

The crush force of the upper half of the skull is very different than the mandible though. Especially when you count jaw dislocation as "breaking." There's a lot of fucking horrific damage you can do to the human face without ever getting close to crushing the skull.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster1 point·12 days ago

When I was a blue belt I don’t know how but I could open my mouth wider than two fingers. I probably tucked my chin in :(

I'd bet not as much.

I tell people that they might as well say a prayer as well if they think that tucking the chin works.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster2 points·12 days ago

Hahaha I think I’ll borrow that one.

My third jiu jitsu lesson another white belt about 20 kilos bigger than me (not the fat kind :( )tapped me out like that.

My chin still kind of hurts. I guess tucking the chin helped stall a little? But if a bear has his arms around you, putting the chin in the way just gives him one more thing he can damage.

Flair- Blue belt2 points·12 days ago

On the other hand, licking their arm works 100%

Comment deleted11 days ago(1 child)
Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster2 points·11 days ago

Fuck it, just crush the jaw

no, not at all. Henry put it best "if you tuck your chin in a RNC... that just means you're going to wake up with a broken jaw"

Usually works for me, but then again I have a pretty short neck.

Why didn't this guy tap earlier? It's obvious he had him he wasn't getting out of that.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster2 points·12 days ago

Maybe he tough he could ride the clock.

Pacific Top Team - InFighting0 points·12 days ago

It's MMA, go for it. But it's really strange to me that people do this to their training partners in Jiu Jitsu. Somehow people think it's OK because you have their back, which I don't get. Imagine sticking your forearm in someones mouth from side control and calling it a choke.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster3 points·12 days ago

I don’t find it strange at all. You extend your arm when you have someone mounted you are gonna get arm bared, tuck your chin in you are going to get your jaw crushed.

Pacific Top Team - InFighting1 point·12 days ago

My point is just that we don't attack the jaw, teeth, etc in any other context. Most people wouldn't do it with a collar choke, Knowingly pull the collar over someone mouth and crank on it. You take the time to try to get it under the chin. I'm not saying it isn't effective to RNC over the chin, just that we don't do it from any other position.

Renzo Gracie MexicoOriginal Poster2 points·11 days ago

Because it wouldn’t work with a collar choke, I mean I don’t see why not use a valid, effective e and legal resource if you can

Pacific Top Team - InFighting1 point·11 days ago

Oh sure it would. You apply more force with a bow and arrow than you can with an RNC.

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