Question: why on one hand do I see that all the content will be easy in classic, but then on the other hand see everyone saying they won’t invite certain classes to groups? Is the content not easy enough to do with a less min/maxed group?.
People like to imagine they’ll all be playing with perfect groups in the top world first guilds, when in reality most of us will be in casual raiding guilds full of boomkins and ret paladins ;)
Because this sub is disproportionately full of people who are into min/maxing. Once the servers go live there'll be more casual players about with casual raiding guilds.
As long as you bring dedicated players who put the work in to make the most of their class, having a some sub-optimal specs in the raid shouldn't be a problem.
Well yeah. Molten Core typically had 10-20 people who were dead from the neck up. We're talking no signs of functional brain activity (there's an easy check - if you ever blow up in a raid when you're the bomb, you have the IQ of a turnip). So there was the place for paladins who were proudly rocking full Tier 1, survival hunters, and spell dps druids (you know, druids before boomkin form). They could technically occupy a raid spot, and 5 of them could output the DPS of a real human being.
This. And also there were no BiS lists or super analyzed meta. People came in blues and greens and it was ok. We now tend to forget this cause we (this sub) has a pretty good idea how to play the classes. This leads to required specs and perfect bis for raiding, which again is overkill.
Yep. Really it's shocking how simple many of the encounters in Vanilla WOW that wiped raids were. Like Twin Emperors. Like basically they have one tough mechanic. It's not even that bad. Yet entire raids would crash and burn on them.
Compared to the real shitters like Sunwell, nothing in vanilla WOW was at all difficult. Which still didn't excuse paladins wearing tier 1, mind you.
Fuck off 2xE is brutal, you can carry like 5 people in that fight.
Sunwell was in TBC you moron.
Whoosh, I'm implying you progressed on neither.
Well that’s one way to cover for the fact you don’t know which expansion had which raid.
For the record I was not one of the 0.02% that killed M’uru, but I certainly got to give it a shot.
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and spell dps druids (you know, druids before boomkin form).
you mean balance druids? named for being the most balanced spec in vanilla
Something like that.
Basically the attitude is :
If you are not minmaxing, you are wasting the guilds time by prolonging the raid clear or progression, and disrespecting those who put in effort. Sure you can clear most raids with 20 braindead idiots, by why would you? Why would someone who doesn't care about clearing the content efficiently like say a ret paladin be allowed to sit and do shit dps, when everyone else is working their ass of to make sure the raid is cleared? Can you really blame people for not wanting bloodsucking leeches like retpaladins?
someone who doesn't care about clearing the content efficiently like say a ret paladin
bloodsucking leeches like retpaladins
I dislike the implication that if you're playing a suboptimal spec you're not min/maxing. This is what leads to an overabundance of warriors, rogues, and mages because nobody wants to be at the bottom of the thing that matters least in Classic - damage meters.
I'd rather bring the boomkin that squeezes every ounce out of the spec than a lazy mage. Effort after the New Character screen is more important IMO.
Ok, so that's what you want. But the way the game works. that lazy mage brings more dps than your tryhard boomkin, so the other 39 people would probably rather have him than you.
Ok, so that's what you want. But the way the game works, you need at least a couple hybrids.
I can tell you your min/max mages would definitely rather have a boomkin than another mage because of crit aura. Ditto for warlocks and a shadow priest.
Have fun telling your 15th warrior who just wants to play fury like all the rest of them because he heard they scale the best that he has to be the nightfall bitch because you won't let a ret pally, enhancement shaman, or survival hunter into your raid who can use it without feeling the DPS loss as much.
Not having those hybrid raid buffs means your min/maxer DPS won't work at their top potential and they'll be looking to jump to another guild that leverages hybrids appropriately. If you're trying to attract the meter-topping DPS you say you are, you're looking for people who want to make top parses. Top parses need a correctly assembled raid group, for which you're not going to have the ingredients.
Oh, and it'll take you a year to gear your raid appropriately because everyone's competing for the same gear.
Not to mention the content isn't difficult enough to warrant this type of raid stacking in the first place. But no, I'm sure your raid group won't crumble under the weight of your own ego. You'll be fine.
There's a great quote describing what you're arguing: “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.” - Daniel Moynihan
This stuff was theory crafted to death on both vanilla live and private servers. Boomkin critical aura bonus does not make up for boomkin poor dps and ooming. Shadow priests are completely ineffective, you can have a holy priest spec into shadow weaving and keep the buff while healing. Improved weapon totems in the shaman tree is utterly worthless. Ret pally bring nothing to the table. Nightfall is vastly better in the hands of a warrior or hunter since they can spam instant abilities for vastly better debuff uptime. Hybrids are mechanically strictly worse in every way while bringing no unique utility.
And your itemization argument doesn't even hold. It's not like there's a bunch of spell damage leather just rotting on the vine where you could gear a boomkin quickly, they're in competition for the same offset items as the mages and locks. Bringing hybrids slows down guild gearing since you give gear to classes that don't scale nearly as well as pures.
You talk about ego? Ego is wanting 39 people to put up with your bullshit so you can spam Starfire or sit there auto attacking and waiting for SoC procs.
This is why and many other on this forum keep advocating for Blizz to continue to iterate on class design during Classic. I WANT to live in a world where every raid wants a boomkin and an enhance and a shadow priest, but that's not the place vanilla was in at the end of its life. It was moving in that direction, but it did not get there. No amount of wishing or shoving your head in the sand will change that, only Blizz fixing the game will.
I never said I wanted the hybrid specs to stay terrible. I'm all for Blizz making balance changes to Vanilla in 1.13 onward because as someone who mained Balance for most of his raiding career I want to be brought to AQ40 without raid leaders like you getting Mage envy. You're an idiot if you think a good raid comp is stacking pure DPS and warriors for damage dealing when the content doesn't necessitate it. It really doesn't.
My point is that you shouldn't disregard the hybrid DPS specs in 1.12 progression raiding as they sit now just because they're lower numbers than the pures.
And why would you have a "holly" priest spec into shadow weaving when you can just bring a talented shadow priest instead of a shitty healer? The healer gives up too many talent to get to SW. Now who's feeling entitled to facts?
The talented shadow priest will still do terrible DPS so many raids would rather have one of their healers apply the debuff. They will then use the spriest spot for a class that actually deals some damage.
The boomkin buff is not worth it. Your raid's DPS will be higher with another mage.
Raids will want shadow weaving if 16 debuff slots are available but often raids will just have one of their healing priests spec for it. Since spriest dps is terrible they rather have a sub par healer who weaves in the debuff
Why do people want the raids to go as quick as possible, dont people think its fun to raid?
They probably do, but when your guild never gets out of MC it can get a little old, right? Especially if you are tryharding but 30 of the other players are PvP specced raidloggers who did not bring consumables.
This right here is the right mentality. I remember a middle school teacher who would rage on any kid that would show up even a minute late. He'd make the point that every minute late you showed up, 30 other people were sitting there for a minute, you show up 2 minutes late and you just wasted a whole hour of collective human time, all because your dumb ass couldn't tell time. We need more teachers like him.
Always thought that shit was stupid. If you're losing your mind over a kid coming in a minute late then you're the one wasting time, not the student.
For a second there I thought your middle school teacher was your raid leader lol
When you put it that way, being a raid leader sounds like a good way to train for middle school teaching.
Yes, it could be done. But certain classes do less dps, so most guilds just prefer to bring more warriors, rogues and mages instead of a ret, ele/ench shammy or a feral/boomkin.
Even hunters only have lile 2-3 spots later on in AQ and Naxx.
There were some corner cases where the buff system actually helped diversity: like maybe the first enhance shaman is ok for wind fury totem in the melee group. Or maybe the first shadow priest is fine in the good healer group.
But in general: yeah, MC was clearable in a mix greens “of fire resist” and crap dungions stuff.
Because e.g. shadowpriests do 1/4 of the dmg of mage/rogue if the fight is not super short like 60s. Because they are oom at this point, same goes for ele/boomkin.
why use a raid spot on dead weight?
The "minmaxing" in Vanilla when it comes to unorthodox specs is not the kind of elitism that leads to being kicked from a guild for doing 5% less DPS than the raid average. A suboptimal DPS such as a boomkin will do like 30-50% DPS of a similarly geared and skilled mage or fury warrior.
In other words, a single fury warrior is literally worth around three boomkins. When it comes to DPS output, taking three boomkins is like raiding with only 38 people instead of 40.
Basically the people saying it will be easy, are the people saying that if everyone does 100% of everything perfectly, then it'll be easy.
It's akin to saying Dark Souls is an easy game if you never miss a dodge roll.
Obviously the game can be beat, it's not magic, and it's not random. With enough knowledge and skill, it can be done. But if it's easy, well that depends on what you mean. Is it easy to get 40+ people together to execute tactics that have little to no margin for error? I'd say not, especially in AQ40 and Naxx.
Just because the content is easy doesn't mean that people want to willingly make it harder for themselves than it needs to be.
You could try to do a Stratholme run with a Hunter pet tanking the whole dungeon to make it extra difficult, but in reality who wants to do that just for the sake of it? You're just gimping yourself for no reason.
Now obviously there are certain exceptions like a real life friend group playing together or something and they just don't care. But generally speaking for PuG groups and even for most raiding guilds the fact is that you're inviting one of these "meme" specs into the group just so that 1 person can have their enjoyment but in the end it's costing the 4 other people in the party by weighing them down. 1 for 4 doesn't sound like such a good trade for me.
And as a side note on top of that, when people talk about wanting to play these specs like Elemental Shaman or Balance Druid I don't think they actually understand that it's not just the fact that the specs are horrible in PvE, they aren't fun to play at all either.
Why would you want to spam Lightning Bolt as a 1 button rotation doing like 20% less DPS than everyone else and there's nothing you can do about it. On top of that you're constantly oom and have nothing else going for you like some unique buffs tied to your spec or something like Shadow Priest does, all you have going for you is DPS and you can't even do that well. Why not just play a Mage and have that same 1 button rotation but you're just doing way more damage and offer very good CC and buffs as well, sounds like a lot more fun to me.
I feel like most of the people who talk about wanting to play this stuff don't know what they're getting themselves into and end up wasting 2 months to hit level 60 and then want to reroll, it is what it is I guess.
That last part is really true. Honestly all these meme specs are awful to play except for feral druid.
Feral druid is actually a really mechanically intense class, both as tank and dps, and I respect someone for choosing to play that, even if it does less dps.. but everything else.. like a retri paladin is literally just autoattack, it seems like people only play this so they have an excuse not to respec for pvp and have prio on gear that they only really want to use for pvp.
I gotta briefly defend elemental, in 5 mans they're straight up awesome. You're probably the only other class than warriors with a semblance of cleve damage which means in most scenarios you can outdps better geared mages while still bringing an insane utility toolkit. Raid wise though, elemental is hands down the most worthless trash in all of vanilla.
Warlocks have a form of cleave damage too, by putting dots on all targets.
I played as Ele for a while (maybe a month or so?) in Vanilla. Had a real issue with threat management. Chain Lightning and Fire Nova Totem are baller, but you end up tanking way more adds than any non-plate wearer wants to tank :P
The thing is though that in most cases even if you want to "cleave" with your Chain Lightning damage and go oom on every pack you have no control what it's going to hit.
In most cases you're going to be doing stuff like Polymorphing a mob or using a Hunter trap or even both, if you're spamming CL you're just going to break every CC that the group uses and be even more annoying.
So it's not like you can take advantage of your Chain Lightning most of the time, and even then you'll just end up oom on every pack and the group either waits 30 seconds between every single pull or they engage packs as 4 while you sit and drink behind everyone and then catch up to them. It's not really very effective imo, I'd rather just have a Mage who has a lot more AoE when there's an opportunity to use it but also CC as well.
As for your last point, either for PvP or class roleplay.
I'll be going prot pally, and I'll be a tank. Mostly for 5 mans. I know they "can" tank raids, but realistically I can't see my effort going into being a main tank. Maybe off tank. But, good thing about pally tanks is that you can put your 31 points into prot and still have everything you need for healing. So, I can switch around some gear, and boom. I'm a healer. The reason for playing Paladin though? I just really love paladins. Other classes, while being more fun mechanically, just end up boring me because I'm not a Holy Crusader of the Light.
My guild cleared MC with 30 people on saturday, and this is a guild that had not cleared anything past MC, we could had 10 retri palladins and it would help A LOT. Its when you get to AQ40 and naxx stuff gets really hard and where you want the best role of each class. But again, naxx can be cleared with 39 people. That last person doesnt matter if he is boomkin or enhace shaman og ret palla. Its just that they dont even do half the damage of fury warriors, rogues, mages, warlock. So they rearly get invited to AQ40 and naxx.
The content is easy but many guilds will still struggle with it. Easier to win by brute force despite mistakes when the raid is optimal. Even in a guild that has content on farm, taking optimal specs instead of ineffective hybrids that do half as much dps might shave a half hour of time off the raid for everyone, let people slack on consumables, etc. Same thing applies for dungeon groups.
It's not easier to do, no. Min/maxed groups work best, especially for clearing instances. Once a raid for a guild is on farm status then no one cares, and you can invite alts and other people. But the way it worked, certain classes worked better.
The alternative is what people dislike - every class can pretty much do anything and there's no difference.
This comic is inaccurate as the ret paladin wouldn't be able to get in a group to get t2
No, he just shut up and played holy until he had Judgement, then he went on to his next life as a ret BG champion after ninjaing Ashkandi and server transferring.
Then he starred in this comic.
Had a GM want to go Ret and kicked anyone out of raid who said anything about it... he was fully geared, pots/flasks, buffs, blew CDs on trash... still lagged far behind rogues and mages on DPS meters.
wouldn't be able to get in a group to get t2
They probably got the helm off an Onyxia PuG and rocking dungeon gear for the rest.
That truth hurts :(
Unlike your DPS O:
Unless it's PvP 😈
purge sounds intensifies
auto attackscasts sealpurgedauto attacks
Ret Paladin PvP.
Spams Rank 1 Seal of Righteousness to oom the Shaman
I mean, if he don't notice something's up he deserve it 🤭
You gave away a secret i bet 99% of people never even thought about. everyone knows about healing spell ranks but other uses are niche like this
The true meta of classic WoW!
Funny enough, the highest or second-highest DPS in our guild was a Retribution Paladin. And we were farming Molten Core and Blackwing Lair and beyond. It was definitely possible but a) it required using some mail and b) required understanding how Paladins worked, and the best combos, which few people were willing to entertain.
Edit: I love how many people feel the need to validate their nostalgic view that Ret. Paladins were useless. Please keep saying things to me in this thread. Just know it doesn't change what happened.
Hate to break it to you but that means everyone else in your guild sucked.
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It also requires your rogues/warriors to be dreadful
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If you play tryhard sure. It's super easy for casual whatever to get into t2
maybe he plays somewhere that lowered the respec cost down from 50g?
this is something they should implement in classic
As much as I want that, I also absolutely do not think they should do it. Prohibitive respec costs help add identity to characters, and it becomes more meaningful to remember that Jim is a prot warrior, but Bob is an arms warrior. Not simply "Jim and Bob are both warriors."
No, instead of trying stuff out people will just stick to guides from day one because of high respec costs.
"Identity" then means nothing more than min-maxed specs all the way.
You couldn't be any more wrong about this. I play on a vanilla server with a lower respec cost. It's great and none of what you mentioned is an issue
It promotes PvP and better pve. Some people won't be able to PvP because they will be stuck in specs for raid.
I haven't tried a private server like this, so I guess I can't really say for sure. But I planned on leveling a warrior with the intent of going Prot at 60, and then leveling another character for PvP.
But this just seems like it's the wrong kind of slippery slope, to me. I have to ask, how reduced are the costs? Because if they are nominal, then I'd have to ask "why not do away with them altogether and just introduce dual-spec?" I don't see it leading to a path we want to go down.
slippery slope is a nonsense argument. retail vanilla had a respec cost cap of 50g. i play on a server that lowered it to 5g. as a prot war you would be able to collect some dps gear and play arms in bgs (fury in raids when you arent needed to tank)
no one is asking for dual specs. you still have to go to a city and untrain your talents. what the lower cost does is allow people to spec for pvp in between raids. this causes more people to pvp which is good for the server.. some would argue it would screw up the economy but it actually takes aware more gold from the player. at 50g, you dont have a lot of people respecing. at 5g a pop, you got pvpers who raid spending 10-20g a week
this also allows people who want to play useless raid classes like rets, elemental shamans, boomkins, etc to do so while raiding their proper specs. you raid as a holy pal, collect your ret gear in raids, and then run around reck bombing people in your free time
Just because a slippery slope is often a fallacious argument doesn't mean it always is.
i play on a server that lowered it to 5g [...] no one is asking for dual specs
Not gonna lie here, if it was only 5g that just seems tedious and pointless. I would rather have dual-spec to save me the ~5 minutes it would take each time to tab out, re-plan my talents, find a trainer, and redo all of it. Keeping it that low makes it pointless.
I get where you are coming from with all of this. I just disagree and personally do not want it.
na, that is a bad idea. you should be stuck as a certain spec unless you visit the trainer in the city and unlearn talents. this is all vanilla blizzlike. but lowering the cost to 5-10g would greatly increase the game play.
you do want to promote pvp? right?
I want to promote character identity above all else.
Nonsense. You don't lose any identity with a lower respec cost.
It actually enchances people's indentity. I seen it for years. Your rets, boomkins, elemental shamans, enchancement shamans, etc. get to gear up in raids. So outside the raid instead of the ret pally being in valor with an unstoppable Force he has full dungeon epics and a sulfaras.
He just enchanced his identity
I would be happy if they lowered it from 50g to 25g
5-10g would be optimal.
I think having to pvp in your pve spec is a good thing it creates a power difference between someone who is try harding/ranking/seriously pvping and someone who is just casually playing. If you want to be a god of pvp you need to spend the gold and if you do decide to you're rewarded with more power than your average noob.
this will cause fewer people to pvp. the quality of player pvping will also be lower because your geared players will not be in there.
its just a dumb idea. having everyone enter a BG in an optimal spec and attracting the geared players increases the quality of game play.
people with raid gear already have a massive advantage over people who don't raid, they don't need an even bigger one
and people will always pvp, people were pvping before the honor system even
i didnt say people dont pvp without this...i said it causes MORE people to pvp. higher population and quality of PvP.
a lot of raiders wont be there because they are stuck in non pvp specs. lower the respec cap and many of them will go.
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Don't tell the first how to play, and don't tell the second whom they have to invite.
Always welcome to play what you want and also likely to play alone unless you have an amazing personality.
"If you're not paying the sub for the other 4/9/19/39 people in your group, they're not obligated to carry your ass."
If you can't handle me at my ret, you don't deserve me at my holy.
You don't have to play holy but again you don't have to raid either.
the guy who made this comic will never get a T2 helm. he will be stuck in valor using the unstoppable force and he will be hated by all his team mates in every BG for wasting a spot.
So true. Bonus points for not offhealing his mates when needed.
Ironic that he wears T2 helmet :p
As an adult with responsibilities, I very much enjoy this post.
Even at the most dedicated, I will be a casual.
Play what you like and have fun. It is a computer game after all.
You just respec after every raid durr
Seems expensive but goes along with the message I'm trying to convey.
Someone explained how their guild would raid during the weekdays, and he would PvP during the weekends for bonus honor. He respeced twice per week which would cost 100g. People claim to make 40-50g an hour, so that’s not to bad if you know what you’re doing.
Some guilds take it even further actually. I know guilds on private server that raids the day before and after reset. So fx. wednesday midday is reset. People respec tuesday and clear the raid tuesday night, it gets reset, and then they clear it wednesday night, then people respec back to pvp. Then they wait 2 weeks ( clearing onyxia/zg/aq20 when needed, you don't need pve spec for that), and do it again. This means you only respec twice every 2 weeks, or once per week.
Yeah the pallys in my guild used to pretty much respec after every raid, they all had their holy gear, then spent their excess dkp on warrior weapons, I never got into it, they had fun but and were pretty deadly in pvp
I used to respec too but it was usually to a pvp healing hybrid spec for ab or wsg.
Or you just might not raid? I most likely wont have time for it but will enjoy doing other things
I mean sure, holy outdamaged Ret, and Prot was literally incapable of holding aggro. But play what you want.
Balance Druid DPS ftw.
Holy out dmging ret...? I refuse to run any undead instance without a pally tank for their superior aoe threat. People seem to think that raids=everything at end game when in reality your only raiding one day a week.
You do understand that you refusing to run dungeons without pally tank is exactly same as than not taking specific classes / specs to raids.
Lol the "refuse to" comment... out to lunch.
Most of the best gear comes from raiding, so... PvP? Good gear is a big factor, specially weapons. Farming? It just goes better the more damage you have so gear factor again. PvE? The same as farming (unless you are healer/tank, but even in this case gear does matter a lot, just not for damage) , with the addition of possible inspects.
Furthermore, considering hybrids being restricted to healer-only in raids most of the times makes getting proper gear for the other specs quite hard unless they're pieces noone wants. Good luck getting trinkets/necks/rings/weapons before every min-max efficient spec has obtained it.
So in the end are raids it all? No, but they do influence everything heavily.
everything at end game when in reality your only raiding one day a week.
Try more like 3 plus times a week unless you are on farm waiting for next tier.
For you maybe , the average player with a full time job might have time to raid twice a week TOPs. Vanilla endgame isn’t just raid logging.
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Can prot really not hold aggro in 5 mans?
Protection Paladins can hold aggro just fine in 5 mans, their biggest problem is that they have to drink every two trash packs or so and that if someone DOES pull aggro they have no taunt so the DPS has to pay extra care for threat.
But if you actually give them a couple of seconds they can AoE tank a pack much easier than a Warrior does, you might not even need to use CC.
I once had a Paladin in full T1 tanking us a Stratholme living run, and as a healer I felt like my requirement to heal people dropped by like 50%.
The 2 set bonus from the Paladin T1 increases the chance of Judgement of Light triggering by 10% when people hit the mob, and the 8 set bonus gives the Paladin a chance to heal the whole party for a small amount when they land a melee hit on a mob.
With the Judgement of Light and 8 set bonus heals constantly going off I felt like I just threw in the occasional healing touch and had to do almost no healing apart from that.
I also did a Molten Core PuG which was hosted by a guild leader of a very decent guild who was playing his alt Paladin and tanking as Protection, but obviously he was just tanking some trash and mostly being carried by Warriors since Paladins have no taunt it's a bit too risky to have them tank hard hitting raid mobs and bosses. Also on a 5-10 minute boss fight they would just go oom anyway.
But in 5 man dungeons if the Paladin is actually geared it's not as bad as people try to make it seem on this sub, and again I would still take a Warrior tank in most cases and the only way I would be fine with a Protection Paladin is if they are actually very well geared, like at least in full T1 level gear.
If you have a Protection Paladin wearing some crappy blues and maybe a green in there as well you're just asking for trouble and a painful dungeon run.
I don't think it's viable to have a fresh level 60 who is trying to gear up just go Protection and start tanking 5 mans, it's a thing where you want to have some gear before you actually start tanking or it's just a giant fuck you to the healer and the group. Yeah I know, needing gear in order to tank 5 mans seems kinda counter productive but that just shows you that the spec isn't really THAT viable and it's just something to have fun with IF you have the gear for it, and the "viability" of it once you have gear also stays in mostly 5 man dungeons.
A fresh 60 prot pally can tank 5 mans the same as a fresh 60 prot warrior.. they have roughly the same mitigation and they're actually better at holding aggro on multiple mobs.
The biggest obstacle is the dps can't be idiots and bum rush mobs before aggro is established, they need to give a few seconds before engaging.
You mean a fully epic geared party could handle 5 mans, where blue items drop? Truly, prots viability is rescued. In full Naxx gear they can probably handle Molten Core!
There's some nostalgia goggles here.
I've played on private servers for a few years now, I think I got over the nostalgia a long time ago. If you're trying to twist my words or something to create an argument just don't bother, no one was talking about party viablility anywhere. The discussion is about 1 class, 1 person, not a whole party.
Yeah strong denial going on here. The warrior equivalent at that super over-geared stage is an arms spec sweeping strikes and cleaving down entire packs.
Not really, if that was the comparison he would be talking about a ret pally tanking strat in T2 or T3. This is their proper tanking spec, it's just trash in all respects.
Yes, also has to drink all the time because they have literally no mana sustain.
Outside of a few niche situations (undead), yeah. The issue is Crushing Blows. You need a certain baseline of prot stats to push Crushing Blows off the hit table, and Crushing Blows from bosses will literally one-shot a tank. So they need to gear protection stats to push those off the table.
Unfortunately Prot pallies have terrible mana sustain. They use mana to generate threat. If they sustain with Seal of Wisdom, they can't exactly generate threat with any of the other seals (and it doesn't solve all mana issues). If they gear for mana regeneration they take Crushing Blows. The result is that running an instance with a Prot paladin requires significant overgearing, since you need to kill all the fights before their mana pool runs out (and it could run out in under a minute, in my experience). Basically to run a 5 man with a Prot pally tank would probably require you to all be in MC/BWL gear. And wait for them to drink more often than healers. So... yeah. You could run a 5 man with a prot pally tank... but you're paying for your subscription. How many graveyard runs do you want to do? Chances are there will be at least one boss that's totally unbeatable where a warrior tank in a similar gear level would let you tear through it (warriors actually had a weird issue where their gear would get too good, and they'd have to take some pieces off to tank properly)
Druid tanks were in a better place, but they had serious gearing issues, really Warrior is just the solution to Classic tanking.
You don't have to worry about crushing blows in 5 mans.
Lol you have no idea what your talking about. A group of all fresh 60s could run 5 man with a pally tank as long as people aren't terrible. Crushing blows aren't a thing in 5 mans you can literally tank in the gear you got while leveling so long as it's reasonably up to date. I'll never understand how people write multiple paragraphs about something they know nothing about. It's like text book dunning-kurger effect.
Prot pally tanking in 5-mans is all about downranking. Most prot paladins constantly oom because they just spam max rank Consecration and generate more threat than they need.
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They can do it just fine if they're good at what they're doing. I've had pally tanks in 5-mans who did far better than most warriors.
Prot pally is dope for a few raid pulls. Example the suppression room. Don't forget to bring a few Force Reactive Discs!
For dungeons paladins are ok as tanks. I wouldnt raid as a pally tank but for instas its great fun
Prot was actually very capable of holding aggro. People just didn't bother to entertain the possibility of it. We tried it several times with a guild in MC once it was on farm status and it was pretty easy with the right talents and an understanding of Paladin spell rotations.
Can play however you want. Just they don't have to accept you. Just like real life
One thing that'll be interesting is if they change up a lot of stuff for Vanilla based on class preferences and roles. People complained about Paladins' roles in Classic and Paladins were consequently amended, very well, in The Burning Crusade. I wonder if they'll allow Paladins to tank in Classic and if they'll introduce a few new items to make it possible.
Trees were changed constantly in Classic, and every major patch saw about one or two classes get point refunds.
Part of vanilla is that not every spec is viable in every situation
Yes. That was part of Vanilla. It's something Blizzard themselves didn't like and worked to change nearly every single patch. I don't see why it wouldn't continue.
Because vanilla ended at TBC.
What? What are you talking about? It continued through Vanilla into TBC. It started in Vanilla. Why would what was a core part of Vanilla - talent tree changes - stop if Vanilla is continuously developed?
after 1.12.1 the game became TBC. Whats hard to understand.
It's almost brilliant. I don't understand your point yet you're hammering away.
Who said Vanilla continued with and after 2.X?
1.12.1 is the end of vanilla. Any kind of 1.13 is not vanilla. If you want changes wait for TBC servers.
Are you purposely dense or is this like a streaming persona?
1.13 would be as classic as 1.12, or 1.11. It would be as classic as 1.4, which first introduced the honor system and saw people fighting over Tarren Mill, or 1.5 which introduced battlegrounds. Vanilla was not one thing. It was a long series of improvements and drastic changes (sometimes revisions). 1.13 would be pretty amazing, and there's no reason for them not to do it. In fact I'd imagine it would be pretty great, since people were clamoring for a ton of changes.
Everyone forgets a lot of stuff about classic WoW. Maybe you didn't join it till later or something. People were posting every day about Pandaren being the next race. People had major complaints about the game that were then addressed. Blizzard didn't even like a lot of their own decisions. Blessing of Kings used to be in the Retribution column. 1.13 would be the perfect chance, after launch, to reconfigure things a bit easier. Make it so that Protection Paladins have a taunt maybe. Fix a few other quirks in the meantime.
"no reason for them not to do it"... Ok zero point arguing with you if you believe that.
You are not obligated to play as anything. Just as others are not obligated to invite you because you chose to play a certain way.
There is nothing stopping you from playing Ret, but don't expect to get easy group invites. If you are truly dedicated to playing Ret then be prepared to spend hours farming consumables and patiently waiting for world buffs before even attempting a progression kill. Not to mention finding a guild that would be willing to forgo a healer to accommodate you.
Is it possible? Yes, just look at Esfand, is it easy? Hell no. Unlike a Warrior or a Rogue you need to give an 110% performance while they can slack off and only give 60% with the same result. If that appeals to you then go ahead, otherwise, best stick to Holy.
No problem with people playing weird specs.
They just won't be in my groups lol.
A lot of "weird specs" were just shunned by a meta-obssesed nerd minority.
I mean damage and healing meters don't lie.
If you're trying your absolute hardest and you're doing barely more dps than a tank its not 'meta-obsessed' its just math.
Like I'm telling someone elsewhere: my old guild half-cleared Naxx before The Burning Crusade and one of our top damage-dealers was a Ret. Paladin. He looked goofy in leather gear and his build made us scratch our heads, but you're right - the meters don't lie.
Which is an outlier. How many players will put in the time, effort and gold to have the proper consumes and spec to get to that level? It isn't appropriate to tell people that they can be special snowflakes, when very few people will actually be capable of pulling this off. As a general rule, rets will be avoided and neglected.
Seems like a problem with people who are rigid and unadaptive. People I wouldn’t want leading a guild.
And to be clear, Blizzard rectified their earlier mistakes, so the whole "snowflake" thing is even more wildly misplaced. If Blizzard implements a 1.13, which I hope they do, hopefully it'll solve a lot of these issues.
No it takes a lot more effort to be ret. You need to have a far greater understanding of your class and invest WAY more time into grinding consumes and preparing for a raid... of the people who play ret, very few will be willing or able to keep up with the maintenance. It's a niche spec that is, in almost every case, not optimal. That isn't to say that it isn't viable. You dont need to convince me... convince the 39 players you will be raiding with.
However much effort it takes is irrelevant. Classic servers are going to have plenty of dedicated players, and raid guilds will eventually finish Naxx and do trash runs for this stuff anyway.
Only, it is relevant. Because most players wont be willing/able to afford the consumes and learn how to properly play ret. The issue with all of this 'pro ret talk', is that people are either arguing that ALL rets are bad or that rets are an absolutely viable raid spec... The truth is somewhere inbetween... The reality for the majority of the population will be that they simply cannot play ret. This will either be due to a lack of player skill/understanding, a lack of time for farming or buying consumes or they simply wont be given the opportunity as most players dont acknowledge the spec as viable. This is just reality...
I really like the Humor flair on the post.
Why I will be rolling Priest
They don't have too, but you want a nearly guaranteed insta invite, go holy :D
If I was doing 5 mans I'd invite aprot pally or a holy pally in a heartbeat. I'd only really invite a ret that was hilariously overgeared or if we were doing strath ud/scholo though.
This is more because dps is not hard to find, particularly melee dps, rather than an actual attribute of ret pallies though.
I wish I knew how to give gold. This is what I would have saved it for.
Back in vanilla the paladin class forums were filled with posts lamenting about the class. It was constant whining about why the devs removed crusader strike. People believed that the devs had something against paladins. I question why anyone would wanna play a class spec based on auto attacking (my guess is that you can watch porn while playing better than any other class). if you wanna play ret, just play a crusader in diablo 3 imo. i personally raided mc, bwl, zg, aq40, some of naxx as a ret spec paladin. I was also the retardin that let everyone die in battle grounds hoping a SoC would proc.
People say content is eaiser due to less mechanics. This is true. But they also fail to realize classes have less tools to deal with these mechanics. This is why a fight like Gaar could be hard. Only one class can tank and every class doesn’t have aoe or ccs or self healing.
You as a player are more limited.
Sure you're not forced to play what you dont want to play, but then again don't come here complaining no one invites you because you refuse to play as holy
i love how you get downvotes for speaking the truth.
Thank you. Farming consumables for hours is not up my alley so an optimal raid group might be what I need to be in if i pve.
I remember in WotLK, we had a paladin apply, and our GM asked me to sit in on the interview..he asked “which of the two Paladin specs do you play?” The app replied “there are three , I play ret.” my GM says “thanks for your time” and ends it there lol.
It sounds like your guild were some awful noobs, ret was one of the top DPS specs during parts of wrath. Holy and Protection were both strong specs, but ret was not a write off like you make it out to be. Shit, in TBC the spec was in an okay place.
Yep we were noobs for sure. My guild leader just had a real problem with dps paladins, priests, druids, and shamans. On retail I’m in a different guild these days with a lot of the old gang and even though the GM has since retired, I still get nervous about playing my alts that can heal but are dps specced.
Eventually we did recruit a ret paladin and he ended up as top dps in a bunch of fights, so what you said definitely bears out as true. The meme just brought back that memory which made me nostalgic.
I thinks that’s called Post Traumatic Hybrid Stress Disorder.
Kind of a far stretch to talk about WotLK in a vanilla context, especially when what you said doesn't really make much sense without more context.
In WotLK Retribution is actually a very solid DPS spec, and in end game raids out damages multiple other specs and classes. In heroic ICC on certain fights Retribution Paladins can easily get the #1 DPS spot on the meter and often times are in the top 5. On other fights they might be lower but overall still not a bad spec in WotLK by any means.
To me it sounds kinda weird that your GM would bench someone because they play Retribution, the only answer I can think of is that your guild just wasn't in a need of more DPS or a Retribution Paladin specifically and that's why his application got declined, and the reason why your GM said "Which of the two specs do you play?" was because your guild was in need of those 2 roles and not because his spec was terrible or something.
In vanilla on the other hand the difference is night and day, it's just a straight meme in PvE.
Well, the meme reminded me of that day. The GM had a REAL problem with dps anything that had a healing spec....seriously, the guy had five max level priests, four holy and one disc. We weren’t a serious raiding guild, though back in the days before mythic raids, it was easier to convince yourself you were close. (We weren’t.)
Retribution was indeed a great spec in Wrath, especially with the bonuses against undead.
I know it’s a stretch, that WotLK isn’t Vanilla, but the power of the meme brought the memory to the surface. We didn’t really need healers when we were recruiting that guy (after the interview the GM went on a rant about useless selfish players playing a dps spec when they could be contributing...he was a good GM but he had this particular tic). It was actually pretty amusing looking back on it. You can see, as someone who really only enjoys the dps role, I played a warlock.
you are not entitled to be in anyone's group
Hey fucko, I treat everyone like they were NPCs, solely there to provide entertainment to me.
Just wanna reiterate how glad I am that I will be playing Horde this time around. I've had enough of Ret Paladins on retail Vanilla stealing my plate DPS drops and being completely selfish in group PvP situations. A Paladin choosing not to play Holy in PvP and instead just going off doing something sub-optimal which ultimately hurts their team's chances to win would be like me going fishing in AV instead of actually playing. I wish for Alliance many Ret Paladins in battlegrounds!
Some people value more having fun than being optimal.
Considering a ret rolling on gear you want as thieving is as selfish as their action if they not ask for it. I just understand why only hybrids can't be selfish while the rest can and usually are.
he is a healer wasting everyone's time. Ret's do terrible dps. he is wasting a spot in the dungeon or BG
he is not wasting HIS time. In the same way, if he's going holy he may be wasting his own time playing something he might not enjoy, which kills the sense of the game (i.e. having fun).Min-maxing doesn't involve the fun factor in anything and it is usually the sacrifice. Is playing not optimally yet doing the content properly a waste?
You know what they call someone who's selfishness screws over everyone else? Think about it.
He might have fun but the other 9 guys in his wsg will be screwed by some idiot who isn't healing/cleansing but instead struggling to deal damage to others.
A proper ret should still be backing up their allies so if he's not doing some spot heals/cleanses/freedom/etc he's just a bad player. Not being holy doesn't stop that, it just stops you being just a healer.
proper ret is an oxymoron
Then hybrid is as well. Guy that can do multiple roles but hey as those roles you suck. You must heal.
in pvp, an elemental shaman is a good hybrid. he is good at killing but can also heal.
ret pallies are notoriously garbage in BGs. even if you are a good player with gear, you would be better for your team healing others
Even then, ele ends up feeling more of a healer-support with occasional killing burst IMO. Going heavy offensive is awful for your mana pool in my experience.
Frankly, it is the only one being decent. Even then you're more of a healing support with occasional burst IMO since going offensive drains greatly your mana.
It's a waste of other people's time, not yours - you will probably be having a blast. If you insist on playing Ret in a battleground then your team will objectively do worse than if you had played Holy. So you might be having fun but other people's experience will be impacted negatively because of your selfishness. If you want smash people with a big two-handed weapon play a Warrior.
It is either one or another. Either the individual's experience is bad or it is for the rest. Those who do not follow the mass are encouraged to do so.
A warrior's playstyle is vastly different, though. A paladin is rather heavy in utility even as ret, warrior is mostly about damage (well, and mortal strike debuff...) PvP-wise.
A Warrior can actually dish out the damage though and also never run out of mana; in fact a Warrior is pretty much the ideal front line combatant because of how rage and Enrage work - the more you hit the Warrior the more rage he has to hit you back and the more damage he's going to do (+25% damage after being critically hit, which in vanilla when you're being focused is pretty much 100% uptime). Now imagine a warrior being healed by an unkillable healer that wears plate and has the most efficient single target heal in the game, a spell that makes the warrior immune to his biggest weaknesses (roots/snares), a spell that removes harmful effects from the warrior including roots/snares/, etc. If only such a combination of talents and class existed!
I'm speaking of flavor, not performance.
I get what you're saying but my bitter real world experience playing alliance in Vanilla and a few months into TBC says otherwise; no ret paladin behaves like that. It's more like they think they're a Warrior with a blue rage bar and they ignore everything and everyone else, just tunnel people and chase after them while their team dies defending a flag or w/e, and a clutch heal and BoF/BoP could have turned the tide of the battle but they don't really care about that, it's all about them SOC CRITZ.
Sad yet true. While possible it does require strong environmental awareness and knowledge to pull it the right way, but certainly this is rare and requires a specific mindset which is quite uncommon. Even then you're still open to mistakes. It reminds me too much of my old EQ bard. Multitasking hard and the more things you can do at once, the better.
If you play suboptimal by choice and it hurts your group's chances to reach their goal, be it in PvP or PvE, they have every right to kick you or not invite you and you shouldn't be surprised.
In an MMO you play with other people who want to have fun as well. And failing or being held back as a group because some people choose to play suboptimal is not fun at all.
I play ret since 2009 and i dont give a fuck about people! (And prot off spec)
ret's in vanilla are useless
Ret (As horde) was actually decent in 2006, and good in 2009.
Why bring a ret or prot pally when other classes can tank or dps way more effectively?
Because it isn't always about being the most efficient. If you can't clear a boss it isn't because you have a Ret pally. If you are going for speed runs, then fine, bring 10 furry warriors, but casual raids can get by just fine without min/maxing everything.
Casual raids can get by without even filling all 40 slots.
I miss Vanilla.
I love how there are people in the playerbase whose literal argument is: "You shouldn't have fun playing a class and spec that Blizzard put into the game because it isn't the optimal spec at endgame. You need to change and only play what and how we want you too. Oh and we definately don't want Blizzard to give those specs we sideline any kind of minor stat buff because 'no changes'." Remember when games were about fun and community?
Nobody is saying you can't play a sub optimal class. It's just that by doing so you shouldn't expect a raid spot in a competitive guild or loot priority over classes that can more effectively use it.
The suggestion of rebalancing ret, enhancement, boomkins, etc is that those "minor" changes will have a big effect on the game overall as most balance changes do. You don't want to make changes that boost PVE efficiency without properly testing their effect in PVP, etc. This takes a lot of time and resources.
It's not just competitive guilds though. It's so well engrained in the community that 9/10 raids will kick you if you don't roll holy (using paladins as an example). At least that was my experience in vanilla and on private servers.
Let's put it another way, vanilla had at least 5 bugs in retri spec with abilities not working as intended or being resistable when they shouldn't be. Should those not be fixed in classic if it was intended? But now rets do a little bit more damage. Does the world end? Pure DPS classes should be top DPS. But if we get to the point where in all but progress raids ans speed runs any spec can play, that would make for a better community and a better game.
The funny thing is these nochangers think we are the worst with our reasoning. Just wait til live is here and a mountain of threads come in complaining about hybrid viability and how you can't play your favorite spec in even dungeons. The community is set to suffer regardless or changes or not.
I honestly don't get it. There is absolutely no compromise either. Complete disregard for variety and pigeonholed into one spec for your favorite class. We can't give them a bone whatsoever and instead you end up with no one playing druids, one of my favorite classes. These classes need to bring more group buff, better itemization or definitely more rework further down in their trees.
It doesn't matter your argument, cause it ruins pvp or any kind of balance, blah blah blah why bring any pure dps to raids blah blah. It's fucking sad how unreasonable people are in this thread. It makes me even more firm in my decision of playing pantheon then a game that refuses to change for at least some class viability
Can someone clear this up for me? Are capable prot paladins really not as good as prot warriors in 5 mans?
No taunt means that you have to have DPS who know how to aggro drop and otherwise manage their threat. That's a lot to ask according to many players.
Thats what aggrometer is for, right? Make it work!
I was playing on a private server this weekend and kinda shocked that only 2 people in a dungeon group had a threatmeter active. 10 years ago, EVERYONE had the common threatmeter going (Omen? Can't recall the name).
Makes me wonder how new Classic players will experience this...
Yeah! Pretty sure it was omen. Totally forgot it was threat and not agro. It's going to be really interesting when classic drops. I know it took me a looong time to get into the end fame content.
If the pally knows how to play and so do the other 4 people in the group then yes absolutely.
The problem is that when you pug dungeons you have no idea who you're getting in your group.
There's a bit of a "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" kinda issue going on here. Sure, you can play whatever you want. But just like I don't get to dictate your spec, you don't get to dictate my game experience either. Bad specs are just bad. They're not subtle, they're not misunderstood, they're just straight up bad. Maybe people will bring you along because they like pvping with you, or because you farm tons of mats for the guild, or whatever. But when you bring a seriously bad spec to a raid I'm in, the rest of the actual classes are gonna need to pull that much harder and the raid will move slower and be more likely to wipe.
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