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[–]evanawright 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Please don’t read the first few paragraphs and comment below without finishing it, save that for when you're finished. Also, I understand that this is a VERY bad time for me to write this, since the Star Wars fandom is more broken than ever before and people just seem to react to opinions as if they are statements meant to be fact. There is no right or wrong side in the argument over whether The Last Jedi is good or not, they are just two different sides. It IS a flawed movie, I will not deny that. However, I am not going to be talking about my opinions on the film that much, instead I feel the need to talk about the fandom that I have been apart of since I was four, and how disappointed I am with it.

The Star Wars fandom has always been a diverse group, even during the original trilogy. There were fans who thought that the first movie was a masterpiece that could never be matched by a sequel, and there were those who liked the sequel more. The interesting thing is, people disagreed about the topic, but they didn’t hate each other over it. Which brings up the main question that I have now: is the fandom treating Star Wars like a religion? This may seem like a very dumb and ignorant question, but based on what I’ve seen lately, I’m becoming convinced that this might be true. Lucas vs Kazdan, the original trilogy vs the prequels, these are both examples of debates within fan bases that can either be discussed logically, or hatefully. Half of the Star Wars fandom has become the second.

This hatred is what led to Jake Lloyd’s childhood being LITERALLY ruined, rather than the figurative ruining that these fans claimed he caused them. It’s what led to most of the fandom not only disliking, but hating George Lucas, the man who invented the thing they are so obsessed with now. Lucas made a few mediocre Star Wars films, he's not a bad person. You can call them bad movies if you want, but to hate EVERYONE involved with them isn’t just irrational, but unhealthy.

The reason why I say the word ‘unhealthy’ isn’t because I think these fans are mentally ill, but because they are so obsessed with their view of Star Wars that they are allowing it to influence their thoughts and actions, just like religion can. I respect religion and its positive influences on society, but it cannot be understated that utter devotion to a religion (especially on a massive scale) can lead to disaster.

The Last Jedi only came out a month ago, and a large number of fans aren’t just calling it bad, but morally wrong. It is the most controversial movie of the year right now for a good reason, it deconstructed and challenged the very series, discussing things like the Force, the Jedi, and the character of Luke in a way the no other Star Wars film has done before. You can either like this or dislike it, I’ll support which ever opinion you have so long as you KNOW that it is an opinion. The reason why I am starting to believe that Star Wars has become a religion for some people is because they are reacting to The Last Jedi in the same way that religious fanatics react to anything that challenges their beliefs. They went into attack-mode if they hated it, or defense-mode if they loved it. Basically, the reaction to The Last Jedi is almost identical to a Creationist’s reaction to Darwin. The acknowledgment that the Jedi have faults, for example, is undeniably true even if you discount the Prequels. Yet, this was one of the things hardcore fans hated the most, because the Jedi were always viewed as the pinnacle of idealism and moral goodness, however…

Even in the original trilogy, Obi Wan and Yoda (to a lesser extent) are actively trying to train and manipulate Luke to kill Darth Vader by making him believe that the man murdered his father, and then continue to urge him after he finds out the truth. Not only does Luke prove them wrong by helping Vader find the will to redeem himself, but they also almost led him to fall down the path of the Dark Side. The original films are great, but they have to be viewed in the context of when they were made to be taken seriously, because they can be cheesy at times. Show Star Wars to someone who hasn’t grown up with it and doesn’t keep that context in mind. Your reaction will surprise and probably anger you. The dialogue can be unnatural or awkward at times, as well as the acting, but nostalgia makes people take it for what it is, as if it really happened. And that is where it all comes full circle, how nostalgia clouds the mind in the same way indoctrination does. Nostalgia won’t lead you to protest funerals or lynch people, but it can lead you to look at something as flawless when it really isn’t. In other words, it can turn you into a purist, or worse.

Everyone involved in Sequel Trilogy is hated by this group, except Mark Hamill. He has essentially become the voice of the fandom’s displeasure, though not by choice and not on purpose. His opinions are being taken out of context to support their belief that the new movies are terrible, even though his criticisms are mild at worst. Most of his statements have been POSITIVE about the movies and the people working on them, he’s just the only person who has some disagreements, but that is all they are: disagreements. Anything that slightly adheres to their beliefs is overblown so that it looks like his level of hate is equal to theirs, which is not even close to being true. They are putting their own words in Hamill’s mouth or saying that his positive comments are lies, and it’s depressing. This is a fact of human nature though, something we all have to overcome. Remember those ‘In the Hood’ prank videos and the comments they had? The most supported comments were the most racist ones, because a group of people found something that confirmed their inner beliefs, even if the video was fake. This is very much the same thing. We all look for things to confirm our beliefs, but this only makes us cling for life to keep them. Changing your mind after this is extremely difficult, but it can be done.

Star Wars fans need to realise that they are looking at the franchise with a bias that is impossible to please. The rage that I have seen is baffling, especially because one of the saga’s most important points is to NOT give into rage. The originals were romanticized to the point that they were called ‘perfect’ when the Prequels came out, Episode I was thought of as the worst movie of all time, and the same is happening now. It’s not a coincidence, it’s a pattern that won’t end until it’s acknowledging. The fandom has gone insane, not like a person but like a mob. It sounds bonkers that the Star Wars fandom is a belief system, but it’s disgustingly true now. They are not judging the Sequels as films, which is unfair. It doesn’t matter how good or bad the acting, writing, directing and cinematography is, it’s the meaning that has turned them against it. The movie is basically being judged as a propaganda film like Triumph of a Nation or Prelude to War, rather than a fictional story with fictional characters set in a fictional world.

In conclusion, Star Wars has not been destroyed by the newest in the series. Luke’s character is not ruined, and neither is the Force, because neither are real. You can disagree with any of those decisions, but if you are willing to hate the whole thing because of this, you are probably taking it too seriously. I grew up with Star Wars just like many of you and I will always love the originals the most, but I will not give into indoctrination to anything, and neither should you. You’re allowed to not like something, I thought the casino scene was totally dumb and pointless, but that didn’t ruin the movie for me. Become the fandom that made Star Wars as big as it is now, not this new one trying to destroy it.

Note: I have the same opinion about the people who think this movie is immune to criticism. They are looking for justifications to see it that way, and are willing to make excuses for its genuine flaws. It’s really too soon to tell how good or bad it is, and I’ve only seen it once, so my second viewing may change my opinion.

[–]wolfgang187 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Any bets one where TLJ ends up for the weekend? It will now have to compete with The Commuter, Paddington 2, The Post as well as Jumanji and Insidious. Maybe a fall out of the top 5?

[–]bamsimel 70 points71 points  (0 children)

I am not a Star Wars fan and I am somewhat dumbfounded by the good reviews for this film. For me it failed on almost every level. Dialogue, plot, characters and themes were all severely lacking. All it really had going for it were special effects and Adam Driver’s acting. The dialogue was frequently jaw droppingly awful. It had me rolling my eyes and bursting into fits of giggles. At one point when someone said something particularly irritating I actually turned to my friend and said that I would totally be on the dark side if I was there, so annoying were the supposed goodies. The basic idea of saving the last of the rebels was fine, but it included too many annoying subplots, lots of nonsensical coincidences and conveniences, it had poor pacing, we were never made to really care about the rebellion or understand why their only option was to sit there whilst two people went off to a casino, and it went on way too long. I was actually bored at times. The editing also seemed a bit off to me- there were times when we shifted between scenes where it felt clunky and poorly judged. The humour often missed the mark and also gave the film a tone that was simply awkward and jarred with the plot. This is a film in which the rebels get practically wiped out and a major character dies and yet it didn’t have any emotional impact on me at all. I cared more about all the random people dying in Rogue One than I did about anything that happened in The Last Jedi. But then, no one was making breast milk jokes in Rogue One. There were also lots of plot holes or things that didn’t make sense to me as I was watching it, which threw me out of the film. I don’t even really understand what happened to Luke to be frank. Not that I care. I have never been a fan of Luke- he has always been annoying and whiny to me- but in TLJ I basically hated him. If only he had gotten around to dying earlier so I didn’t have to watch more of him being an annoying jackass on some Irish island for most of the film. So I didn’t really care about his disappearing trick at the end. Kylo Ren and Rey were alright, the former being the only interesting character in the whole movie, but I found the two who went off to the casino planet annoying, their acting wasn’t great (though they were given some truly appalling lines of dialogue to say) and Oscar Isaac’s character was really under utilised, he was around but he never really contributed anything useful to the plot.
The weird alien horse bit also irritated me no end and I did not understand its purpose at all. If you’re going to try to make an anti horse racing film, please attempt to do so with at least a dash of subtlety and don’t beat me around the head with it. Why am I even meant to care if you set some silly animals free for one evening? And how on earth did Rey get back to the remaining rebels without everyone detecting her ship? What were the fluffy things who wanted to eat chicken about? Why did that Rose crash Finn’s ship out of the way when he was going to take out the canon? (This made literally no sense to me. I’m going to save you, so that we can all die together???) What are the odds that the rebels only hope is a codebreaker who just happens to be on a nearby planet which just happens to be easy to reach without the baddies noticing? Why were they able to figure out the supposedly technologically impossible active tracking so easily? Why did no one ever suspect that they were using Rey/Leia’s tracking thing? (Coz that’s where my mind immediately went once they explained how it worked) Who the hell was Snoke? Why is Luke such a complete prat? Did we really need the nipples and breast milk scene? So many questions, and yet I simply do not care enough to seek out any of the answers.
And I didn’t hate it because I’m not a Star Wars fan. I really enjoyed the Force Awakens and Rogue One, so I am perfectly capable of enjoying them if they are well made. But this wasn’t. I would give it a 4 out of ten, as it was so very flawed that it wasn’t really an enjoyable experience for me. There are so many big budget, action, sci fi blockbuster films that are much better made and much more enjoyable than this was. The positive reviews baffle me.

[–]allihn 45 points46 points  (2 children)

I just love how roughly 50 % of the rebel crew are female and most of their leaders are too but in the First Order there's apparently only one "evil" female character. Like besides all the other social justice bullshit (meat shaming, "boys being boys" and like they're not obeying) they depict that only men can be evil. I wouldn't say the movie was worth the money in any way. Only wish now I would had pirated it.

[–]Coffee_Pyramid 19 points20 points  (1 child)

I’m guessing you mean Capt. Phasma as the evil female? The character that had just as much screen time as she did in the trailer? Notice how the rifle she fires at the AT-ST driven by BB-8 magically disappears and then she has a metal stick to fight Finn.

[–]allihn 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yes, exactly her. And the list of plot holes just keeps getting longer and longer.

[–]truthdoctor 51 points52 points  (1 child)

TLJ does not make any sense. It has huge problems with continuity, plot holes, character development and logic. Many of the characters' actions and motivations are beyond explanation or redemption. They are simply idiotic. The story is not coherent from Episode 6 to 7 to 8 and there is ZERO attempt to provide any information as to why the situation is as it is.

What happened with the Empire, Republic and Rebels after the emperor died in episode 6? Where did the First Order come from? Where did Snoke come from? Why isn't the Republic in charge of the Imperial fleet? Why aren't the rebels/resistance part of the Republic and if they are why are they the RESISTANCE? WTF is happening?

No information is provided as to why what is happening on screen is happening and the plot is riddled with Mary Sue Rey's inconceivable victories and Deus Ex Machinas at every major turn. What made it worse was the pathetic attempt at humor that completely turned me off of the first scene. When Leia went full superman, that was the only time I or the audience laughed.

Who is this director and this team of nit wits and what have any of these "film makers" ever done to warrant being in the director's chair? From what I've seen, they should never be allowed near a camera again until they can at least write a coherent short story and then maybe they should be allowed to film commercials.

[–]Jake_Skywalker_ 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Who is this director and this team of nit wits and what have any of these "film makers" ever done to warrant being in the director's chair?

'Rian writes strong women!' -The Director of Lucasfilm.

Rian couldn't think of any other "honest" reaction of Luke, other than throwing the saber over his shoulder.

He's MASSSIVELY qualified!

...to run a dumpster

[–]strawberribird 13 points14 points  (5 children)

I wasn't a a big fan of the actual plot. The cast gave amazing performances though. Adam Driver conveys such genuine emotion throughout the whole movie. Daisy Ridley is an amazing Rey, she is fierce as hell. You can tell John Boyega loves what he's doing while he is acting and that's fun to watch. I think this film wasn't terrible but it was, in my opinion, not as good as The Force Awakens.

[–]truthdoctor 31 points32 points  (1 child)

I wasn't a a big fan of the actual plot.

What plot?

[–]strawberribird 5 points6 points  (0 children)

OHHHHHH trueeee

[–]Wild_Flower11 7 points8 points  (2 children)

adam driver saved this movie for me. I would have walked out angry if it werent for kylo ren and his complex storyline. Instead, I walked out disappointed but curious to see what happens to kylo next time.

[–]strawberribird 5 points6 points  (1 child)

For me Kylo is easily one of the most interesting characters from this new trilogy. When I went to see this movie he was the character I was most looking forward to seeing more from.

[–]rainbow_sage 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Okay, this is a massively unpopular opinion, even with people who disliked TLJ...but I really disliked the direction they took Ren in. In TFA, he slays his own father, showing little remorse which left a bad taste in my mouth. When the teasers and promotional material seemed to show him exhibiting remorse and conflict, I figured they would create an interesting arc in which he truly struggles with his horrific past actions. Although I enjoyed his interactions with Rey initially, it all felt like it was for nothing when he basically throws a hissy fit over her refusal to join him, and essentially declares her his enemy at the end. I didn't feel like there was much pay-off.

Like many other failures in this film, Kylo Ren fails to change or grow. In fact, he feels like he regressed back to the bratty piece of crap from TFA that chooses to destroy stuff with his weapon when he's angry. He doesn't grow into a competant leader for the First Order or a better tactician or anything. His anger blinds him to Luke's trickery at the end as well.

Basically, I found him very one dimensional. He just becomes a 'pure evil' villain at the end, and not very interesting either. I think he's an awful successor to Snoke, both in-universe and from a narrative perspective. I really think the best direction to have taken with him was to either leave the First Order to go do his own thing (maybe taking Rey along for the ride as well) or to join the resistance. Keeping him in the First Order did him no favors.

For the record, yes, Adam Driver's performance was great. It's the writing that sucked.

[–]aworldturns 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Hamill probably told them he was out and to kill him off. Also, Disney did this movie bad on purpose to dumb it down for their future industry of movie monopolies.

[–]hafabee 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Hamill probably told them he was out and to kill him off.

I highly doubt that. Mark Hamill voiced his concerns over the inept writing for his character and then did his best to act the character out according to Disney's wishes. I don't think he got a single say in what happened with Luke Skywalker in this, at least that's my impression.

Also, Disney did this movie bad on purpose to dumb it down for their future industry of movie monopolies.

I highly doubt that too. They have a terrible writing team at Lucasfilm Disney right now, that's the problem. There's nothing wrong with Rian Johnson's direction as far as I can see (except for Daisy Ridley phoning in some of her scenes in this one, especially alongside Mark Hamill who had to carry her in a few places, which was astonishing since she was so good in the last movie, Rian Johnson should have been able to coax a greater performance out of her, the talent is there), but the writing in this is a whole new level of ineptitude for Star Wars.

I rarely see blockbuster movies this poorly penned, and Star Wars should be the easiest of them all to write, it's every fantasy genre mashed into one. The entire movie is narratively fucked. Like, every aspect of story telling here is inept. They've got a big problem there, if I was Kathleen Kennedy I'd clear out the entire writing staff, starting with whoever the creative manager is and work my way down, and then fire myself too. They're clearly unworthy of the mythological and folklore legacy they've been handed and they will run it right into the mud if left to their own devices.

[–]Slycross 16 points17 points  (0 children)

No he tried to tell Rian his character would never do what he did. Rian basically said "I do not care I need you like this to fit my movie" mark hamill did complain a bit how he was portrayed. He really feels how the fans feel. I do think disney step in to quiet him. Maybe saying "hey were bringing u back in the next one. ..now that leia is not goin to be in it

[–]perestroika12 19 points20 points  (10 children)

It was a bold movie and I like the creative balls it took. It's hard to do something original with a 40 year old franchise that's beloved by millions.

Sadly, it failed on a few accounts:

1) Too many weird/unfunny/mood killing quips. This isn't a marvel movie, stop it. So many good scenes that were just killed completely.

2) Unneeded obligatory cute animals that add nothing to the plot. Clearly just focused on the money here

3) The plot was all over the place and borderline absurd. Star wars has never been "realistic" but this is a new level of over the top. Once again, reminds me of marvel movies. It jumped from event to event with every scene with huge changes in location, setting etc. There was too much going on, too busy.

4) Lacked any sort of crazy plot twist. In general star wars has never been able to replicate the "luke I am your father" mindfuck.

I think most of this is driven by profit incentives. Disney gotta get paid I guess.

[–]strawberribird 16 points17 points  (0 children)

most of the humor in the film felt so "disney". Carrie Fisher actually wrote some of her own jokes (like the" I changed my hair" joke), and that seemed like it was perfect for a Star Wars movie. I mean Carrie Fisher has been with the Star Wars franchise since the beginning so if anyone knows how to write jokes that would make sense in the Star Wars universe it would be her.

[–]porcupinetri 35 points36 points  (6 children)

I'm sorry, but what was actually bold about it? It's no where being close to bold. Just because it's different, it doesn't mean it's bold. It didn't take one single risk. It appeared to take some sort of a risk or a bold move, but it whiffed out in the end. Rey looked like she's about to turn to the dark side, but whiffs out. Leia looked like she died, but no she didn't. Finn looked like he's going to make a heroic sacrifice, but that was whiffed out too.

Don't call what they did with Luke as bold. That's just shitty writing. This movie is anything but bold.

[–]perestroika12 5 points6 points  (5 children)

Rian Johnson took a huge risk in his deviation from the accepted formula. It's a very different movie in tone/feel/attitude/writing than other movies. To deviate that far from a 40 year old beloved franchise...that's a bold move. Whether you liked the movie or not, took balls to do. Easily could have made a more formulaic/generic one ala JJ Abrams. Messing with star wars can get you death threats.

I don't think the risk worked, but gotta admire it.

[–]truthdoctor 22 points23 points  (0 children)

You just keep repeating the same paragraph over and over without going into detail and backing up your points with evidence.

[–]mateo2450 19 points20 points  (3 children)

I don't agree. It was different in tone in that it had unnecessary humor in seemingly every pivotal moment. The writing seemed like it was a jumble of stories of the individual characters alone and that did not gel with the plotline itself.

The risk - was for Rey and Ben to go off on their own and explore the Force and the "jedi must end" and "point of view" themes. And then in EP9 - we figure it out. Alas we are left with simply a story about good and evil - at least at the end of TLJ - that's what we're left with.

One thing I find sad but amusing is seeing Mark Hamill in all of those pressers, premieres and interviews. He looks so sad, angry, depressed and maybe with a "f*ck it" exasperation. You can tell he really hates what they did with his character. I trust Mark.

[–]perestroika12 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I think all of those things you hate represent risks in themselves, especially the tone. It was very not star-warsy to do all of that and to do so represents a large break from past tradition. That's what I mean by "bold" and "risk". It's not just plot, the entire tone of the movie was completely not star wars.

Rian Johnson intentionally made a "not star wars" star wars movie and I think that takes balls. He basically made Star Marvel Wars when he could have made another JJ Abrams style generic movie.

I don't think it worked at all. I'm actually of the opinion he messed it up really badly and that long term the movie will be viewed in a very negative light. But I recognize to mess with the formula like that is a ballsy move.

[–]Slycross 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Why do it in the middle of a trilogy. Heck he has his own trilogy. Go balls to the walls I say. At least I know it will be his vision in all three. Not have this disjointed mess with 2 seperate visions. Lol came close to having 3 visions with a differ director in the third one.

[–]matyes 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There is a fineline between things like bold/brave/ballsy and ridiculous. And what Rian did was ridiculous, if you want to make a "not star wars" star wars movie you have to desconstruct and analyze the star wars lore and characters. He did none of that.

[–]Taboo_Dynasty 16 points17 points  (2 children)

Does anybody else agree that Disney is the first order? In the distribution game, making sequels, no matter how poorly, boost sales and toys from the rest of the series. It's a mad money maker no matter what the critics say. BTW, those crystal foxes were way cooler than those f-d up penguin things. Where can i get one?

[–]Coffee_Pyramid 7 points8 points  (0 children)

No, Disney isn’t the First Order, just a bunch of angry milquetoast white people. I recommend watching Disney’s “Education for Death” made in 1943 when Disney had balls to explain to children and adults about the horrors of facisim. Buying into the SW brand and Disney being a corporate shill isn’t the problem, it’s leaving this shit movie feeling unispiried, nihilistic, and confused.

[–]truthdoctor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sure Mickey Mouse will be shitting them out in the near future.

[–]hey_dougz0r 30 points31 points  (8 children)

I am struggling to understand why this movie received 4/4 from Roger Ebert and has such high ratings from the professional critics. If I took away all my personal experience with Star Wars and expectations thereof and treated this as an entirely new movie I could probably accept "The Last Jedi" and "The Force Awakens" as similarly entertaining as some of the recent Marvel movies (most of which I must admit I also do not enjoy).

Only two points can I as yet concede about "The Last Jedi." First, that much of it is crafted for kids and young adults. I too was immensely enamored with the original Star Wars movies as a 10 year old and I wasn't overly concerned with great writing at the time. Second, that the action and special effects are high quality and should appeal to those who enjoy such things.

As for the bad... I find "The Last Jedi" difficult to swallow both as a well-functioning screenplay and as an extension of the Star Wars universe. Disney killed Han in "The Force Awakens." In the following movie we are gifted the death of Luke Skywalker. Both deaths were essentially suicides, by the way. Admiral Ackbar dies too, a great old character loved by millions and wiped away by hardly more than an afterthought. Even new characters such as Phasma and Snoke come and go more like set props than actual personalities.

Wait a second...am I actually watching a bad Game of Thrones knock-off?

Beyond body counts we have another, perhaps more understandable example of the revolt against existing Star Wars mythos in Rey's epiphany about her parents likely being no one special. While that's perfectly acceptable in itself as a piece of the plot and as a divergence from the original movies it was built up to incorrectly by the screenplay and ultimately felt jarring and awkward. Why beg the question so distinctly if the answer is going to be nothing important to the audience? Yes, audience. Rey may have experienced profound feelings in that moment but that did not carry well to the viewers, at least not for me despite that I genuinely like Rey's character for the most part.

There's more of course, and it might all be enough to make one believe Disney wants to shape Star Wars into its own creation except that's not what they've truly accomplished. It is instead a Frankenstein-ian mish mash of old and new, not a clever transition into something that feels novel and original a la Christopher Nolan's "Batman Begins." Why was it necessary to explicitly bring old icons into the new movies and then destroy them mercilessly and at times carelessly? If we're going to wipe the slate then why not start fresh? After seeing "The Last Jedi" I am convinced Disney has essentially lured legacy Star Wars fans into a back alley with the promise of a taste of old glory only to clumsily beat them to death with a bat.

I could go on at great length about other issues with the movie related to the dramatic flow and the overall screenplay which are serious. However as I've only seen it once and I don't wish to write a novel I will refrain from expanding further. Besides, if we are being honest, with only a few exceptions the previous six movies, particularly the prequels, don't set the bar all that high. Oh George Lucas, you poor, desolate soul.

I'll end with this: I don't think the outpouring of negative sentiment is entirely explained by dismissing the naysayers as older, disaffected Star Wars fan-boys and girls who just can't let go. Much like the movie industry as a whole in recent years, with it's plethora of remakes and sequels, there is something fundamentally amiss in "The Last Jedi" and to a lesser extent in "The Force Awakens." It feels as if Disney has simply slapped the Star Wars brand on their version of a Marvel superhero franchise.

Please feel free to criticize, especially if you have insightful points to make against what I've said or defending other aspects of "The Last Jedi." If you genuinely believe you can sway me into better liking this or the other Disney Star Wars movies then please give it a try.

[–]slartibartfast3rd 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Also suspect something like this. 1. Disney was out to make a game of thrones in space (why, I cannot understand, really dislike that show). And 2. All those positive "professional" critics - it's weird, seems like everyone are afraid of Disney.

[–]truthdoctor 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I am struggling to understand why this movie received 4/4 from Roger Ebert

Either he's planning on getting a big cheque for retirement from Mickey Mouse or he's lost his senses.

[–]amethodicalmadness 13 points14 points  (0 children)

But isn't Ebert dead? I'm sure it's not his own personal critique but of the people who run his website.

[–]matyes 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Fron what I know, having some friends studying film as their major in university. They seem to see the movie in list of checkboxes. If it fills the list then its good and if it doesn't it is bad. And different seems to be an instant plus.

I know I may be completely wrong. But its what i see from the people who study it.

[–]cpio 14 points15 points  (2 children)

Just one minor correction. Roger Ebert died sometime ago, so 'his' review is actually somebody working for his website.

I too am baffled by the overwhelmingly positive critical response to the film. I have noticed that some of the better youtube reviewers have been more in line with what I expected (YMS gave it a pretty scathing review, and that is someone who doesn't give two shits about star wars).

I wonder if it's partially to avoid fanboy backlash. Nobody wants to get death threats for criticizing a star wars film (ironic in this instance). Alternatively maybe it's to stay on Disney's good side, now that they own most of the film industry. One other possibility is that most reviewers have an incredibly low opinion of star wars at this point (thanks to the prequels) so anything above that very low bar gets their praises.

[–]hey_dougz0r 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I genuinely believe many critics like the movie. Which leads me to believe that my expectations for what make a good movie are clearly different than those of many movie goers. For example, I simply can't get very involved in most of the movies from the Marvel universe, though I have definite interest in watching "Logan" after hearing the positive reviews from fans and critics alike, and I do like the "Jessica Jones" series as it stands now.

The best expansions to the Star Wars universe so far seem to be found in games and in spin-off novels. I loved Kyle Katarn, Jan Ors, and the Jedi Academy. I thoroughly enjoyed Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. Never played Knights of the Old Republic but that is a classic Star Wars RPG loved by many fans. Disney may have put a different veneer on their version of Star Wars but in the end I don't feel what they produced is much more interesting than the prequels. Some moments in both "The Last Jedi" and "The Force Awakens" truly swept me away, I won't deny it, but they were infrequent glimmers amidst a sea of cgi-enhanced mediocrity.

[–]shb117 3 points4 points  (0 children)

though I have definite interest in watching "Logan" after hearing the positive reviews from fans and critics alike

Please please please watch Logan. It was incredible on every level - story, acting, pacing, drama, violence (probably one of the most violent superhero films I've seen).

[–]biggii2 42 points43 points  (1 child)

This thread, the audience score on rotten tomatoes, and YouTube are the only places that I feel have sane opinions on this film. I thought it was a clusterfuck in the writing department. That's my issue. And a lot of you agree. But everywhere else everyone's making apologies for this film. Any other thread in r/movies still finds this film mostly enjoyable. r/starwars is convinced this is a fantastic piece of filmmaking, and critics and internet media are praising this as a bold new direction ( never mind that it didn't actually go in a new direction). Incompletely dumbfounded that anyone thinks this is an acceptable sequel to TFA. A film I also heavily dislike, but acknowledge that, as a film, its a decent 7/10. TLJ, as a film, has so many fundamental issues with character motivation, writing, and editing that I'm completely dumbfounded at the praise it is receiving.

Defenders of the film will say I'm being hyperbolic. But I'm not. I really dislike TFA....but I can be objective about it as a film, even if it does things I don't like. As I said, as a film, its a decently made 7ish out of 10. The issues I have with TLJ are not that it went in directions I didn't like. My issue is that it fundamentally fails to tell a coherant story.

[–]truthdoctor 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Incompletely dumbfounded that anyone thinks this is an acceptable sequel to TFA. A film I also heavily dislike, but acknowledge that, as a film, its a decent 7/10. TLJ, as a film, has so many fundamental issues with character motivation, writing, and editing that I'm completely dumbfounded at the praise it is receiving.

I also did not like TFA but I understand why younger people did and also gave it a 7/10 which I don't consider to be that good (>8 would be a good movie in my books).

TLJ does not make any sense. It has huge problems with continuity, plot holes, character development and logic. Many of the character's actions and motivations don't make any sense. The story is not coherent from Episode 6 to 7 to 8. No information is provided and the plot is riddled with Mary Sue Rey and Deus Ex Machinas at every turn. What made it worse was the pathetic attempt at humor that completely turned me off of the first scene. The funniest part of the movie was when Leia went full superman, that was the only time the theater laughed.

[–]Bezoedelaar 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Mark Hamill is really good at staring intensively.

Am i the only one being weirded off by that?

[–]matyes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Shhh... weirdness leads to fear fear leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering

[–]LuigiPunch 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Is it just me or did luke die in such a vague way that they can actually keep him alive? I feel like I could see disney try to turn it around and suggest it was a fakeout and that he really needed to just regenerate from all the effort and the power of the force in that moment, or some bullshit. I could see it. Not that it'd necessarily be preferable.

[–]IceCreaaams 9 points10 points  (0 children)

He died in the same way Obi Wan died.

[–]max_caulfield_ 8 points9 points  (1 child)

See this is why I wish they had just let him disappear and leave it at that. If that were the case id agree with you. However after that we see both Rey and Leia note that hes gone, which takes away any doubt that hes dead. Its so frustrating that he consistently resolved storylines in unsatisfying ways and took away any hint of mysticism, all for some cheap "gotcha!" moments. Lets kill Luke off before he can have one legitimate lightsaber duel to properly send off his character... Wtf

[–]LuigiPunch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well that's part of what I meant, I could see those follow up scenes being ret conned since they aren't that significant, kind of like the emperors appearance in the empire strikes back. It'd be weird for a company to say they made a mistake, but I don't know, maybe it's the right move? The movie doesn't hinge on it for sure, it's interchangeable. If you took a bathroom break at the end of the kylo like fight you wouldn't even know it. It'd be a lot easier than other mistakes, like cortana in halo 5, as that was a bad character decision, but the whole game hinges on that characters presence so you can't fix it. It's gotta be tempting based on the backlash.

[–]sangemarcum 23 points24 points  (8 children)

To everyone that liked this, answer this question honestly. Imagine if i told you before this movie was released, that after 40 years of waiting, luke's first action upon returning to the screens, would be to toss away his iconic lightsaber, go about his daily business of polevault fishing and drinking milk off an lactating alien seacow? What would you say to me?

[–]khalfrodo34 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I'd say that while some of the visuals were a bit bizarre, that on a character note it worked and brought him to the Yoda/Obi-Wan state from the OT. It was executed clumsily, but I see the logic behind it.

[–]Agave 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I'd say as long as there are strong female characters and Chewbacca is finally meat-shamed it would turn out to be the greatest movie ever made.

edit: that was a joke

[–]the_vince_horror -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I'd tell you to take a deep breath and tell yourself itself it's just a movie.

[–]SolidSolution 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I'd say it makes sense. Isn't that basically Obi Wan's state of existence when we find him in A New Hope? The only difference is the way in which they interact with their student.

There is a balance of old and new. If every theme was new and foreign, there would be an outrage that it doesn't feel like Star Wars. And if every theme was the same, there would be an outrage that it's some kind of low effort copy cat. Sometimes you just have to enjoy movies for what they are, because if everyone got a chance to play Backseat Director then we'd have a thousand different versions of the movie.

[–]khalfrodo34 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree with your first point wholeheartedly, although I don't agree with the "enjoy movies for what they are" argument.

[–]sangemarcum 12 points13 points  (0 children)

In obi wan's case, the empire was at the height of their power, he and yoda's only option was to go into exile and wait till the right moment. After RoTJ the republic is back in power and there is absolutely no reason for luke to exile himself and die after losing 12 students. Obi wan didnt go to tatooine to die like luke does in tlj. He had a mission even while in exile. "Sometimes you just have to enjoy movies for what they are" well sorry that i like to watch movies with a critical mind and love for a movie to make sense with what came before and ties into the continuity rather than destroy the previous lore.

[–]LuigiPunch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"So Luke went back to being a lone farmer? I wonder what happened, sounds neat"

[–]fleeting-glimpse 11 points12 points  (0 children)

are you sure that wasn't an episode of robot chicken?

[–]Camilla2244 26 points27 points  (2 children)

so after many weeks, consensus amongst my peers and pretty much everyone i spoke with is...movie was disappointing, a lot of wtf moments, luke was not done justice, but at least adam driver did a great job and kylo ren is the only character that is complex and interesting. And i have not heard one person enjoy the casino plot line. Do people feel the same here?

[–]California-hiker 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have also been thinking about The last Jedi and if I liked it or not. I agree with you, it was very disappointing, at least as part of the new trilogy. However, as an action movie where I could turn my brain off for an hour or two, I think it did a decent job there.

I forgot the casino plot line until you brought it up.

[–]sunofagundota 39 points40 points  (11 children)

Honestly, it's not a bad star wars movie. It's a bad movie period. It's a beautiful, expensive bad movie.

How many rebels died? 1000, 10,000? But our 5 main characters, regardless of decision or actions, end up in the same spot unchanged from 2.5 hours earlier. Ah, but it's ok because we can rebuild!

I love how the message of this film is be born with a lot of midi-chlorians and then do whatever you want.

And unlike the prequels, this damages not star wars legends, but movie legends. Won't ever look at Luke the same knowing his journey is to become a 14 year old child whose redemption is being a demi-god and pulling a magic trick. His sacrifice after the entire rebel fleet is gunned down, it's like, c'mon. But not the main characters.

Spare me the good/evil, economic and spiritual exposition. If you cant write a competent script you haven't earned it. I'm sure enough has been said of the Finn plot not to rehash - it serves no purpose and ends with a villain introduction, miraculous death, unseen escape and bb-8 deus ex.

[–]SonofNamek 37 points38 points  (2 children)

You just don't get it.

You came in with the biased pre-conceived expectation that this was going to be a good film. But the Last Jedi was actually being subversive about being a good film and that flew over your head. Unlike me, you're likely just a neckbeard blinded by your own fanboyism for dare questioning anything regarding this movie. Meanwhile, nostalgia has clouded your mind if you think the original films had good and sensible plots with well executed character arcs and unforgettable moments. Guess what? One of the most respected and highly regarded professions out there - movie critics - say you're wrong and the Last Jedi sits at a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes. Anyway, should you choose to re-evaluate your opinion towards the correct view, you ought to think about giving Disney some extra money by rewatching this film.

[–]mr3inches 9 points10 points  (1 child)

lol I was jumping back and forth on how serious this was until the end

[–]sunofagundota 13 points14 points  (0 children)

One of the most respected and highly regarded professions out there - movie critics

10/10 well written satire.

[–]Dr__Nick 17 points18 points  (4 children)

It’s amazing that with all the buyin and willing suspension of disbelief Johnson had to work with, he could craft something so broken, even for Star Wars

[–]sunofagundota 20 points21 points  (3 children)

I guess I'm still processing why critics are so positive. It can't be just Disney fear. I'm a liberal dude, I've heard that criticism of criticism, and I don't mind male characters being sidelined or weak. It's a bad movie.

[–]Dr__Nick 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I wholeheartedly agree but I find that I am not normal as a critic of TV and media. Plot problems take me right out of things much more than it seems to for others, especially professional critics. So many critics loved Bladerunner 2049 for instance, and it has too many things wrong with how it's put together for me to much like it.

Star Wars was overlong, the world building wasn't good (please, at some point just explain what the hell happened with the Rebellion, the Republic, the Empire and the First Order, did the Empire even fall?) and a lot of the plot went nowhere productive and did violence to things like space combat.

[–]biggii2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm all for criticising TLJ and its plot. But I don't have you talk I'll of 2059 haha. That's the complete opposite of TLJ to me and my favorite "big" film in many years. What were your issues with it?

[–]Dr__Nick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just don't like things that break internal consistency of a world, and I think movies do that a lot because directors think they can get away with it because it's also about visuals and experience rather than coherent plotting.

I think the setup for Bladerunner 2049 isn't consistent. Here's pretty much what I wrote after seeing the movie:

It's like they wrote the script without having clear rules about what a replicant even is and what implications that would have for the plot. Don't replicants have DNA? Forensic pathologists couldn't tell the difference between replicant and human bones without seeing a manufacturer's stamp. That's pretty impressive. So, you can apparently design amazing, organic life forms and implant memories, recreate Rachel down to a mistake in eye color, but you can't cure a purported immune deficiency that we theoretically already know how to cure today? Even if that was only a cover story for the daughter, it shouldn't be a very good one.

Are replicants fancy designer clones? Are you actually designing them with reproductive organs because they're vat grown improved humans? You can implant false memories, you can recreate Rachel but somehow you can't design them to breed? But 25 years ago, you had programmed in control over their very lifespan? In fact, I would think selectively stopping them from breeding if they're some form of improved clone would be the harder trick.

They uncapped the lifespan on replicants because they supposedly fixed the loyalty and unhappiness issues of the old ones. Yet K has to take that baseline test, and the time when he's really off, his Lieutenant casually mentions he should be getting terminated but for her intervention. So, is that something all replicants have to do? Doesn't seem that safe, then. Are those prostitute replicants testing against a baseline in case they go off the rails? I'm sure they see some bad stuff too. Cue replicant underground reveal- and why would that shock anyone in that world if they have to keep checking up on their current model replicants or risk them going nuts?

It's not that I necessarily need to know these things, but the people writing the script should because otherwise contradictory moments that don't actually make sense happen.

[–]TitusVI 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Watching the movie I had moments where I was thinking Rey would make a great worker for the dark side. Btw why did the commander say she had to stay in the ship to command it when all she did was standing around up until she had to suicide the ship? It can clearly fly by itself.

[–]hafabee 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Why didn't Rear Admiral Holdo move her cruiser between the Imperial flleet and fleeing Rebel transports?! She could have hidden their departure and guaranteed their escape, maybe even provided some cover fire, and even if the Imperial fleet could detect the transport ships through her ship then she could intercept and soak up any barrage the Empire fired at the fleeing Rebels by positioning her cruiser between them.

[–]yamaholo 69 points70 points  (6 children)

I remember seeing TPM in the theater. It took a few months for the reality to set in for everyone: TPM sucked. Up until then, there had been so much defensiveness from the fan community about TPM. So much speculation about how we're missing the genius hidden elements and how TPM is the greatest thing ever and how it will be vindicated.

I feel like it's that time all over again, except this is somehow much worse. There's a strong undercurrent of sheer anger and hatred towards how TLJ shit all over the Star Wars legacy and forced a ham-fisted feminist agenda down everyone's throats.

I think that as the weeks go by, more and more people will openly admit how fucking horrible TLJ is. What makes things even more insane is how the critics were clearly, SO clearly bullied and bribed by Disney into lying to their readers about how TLJ is an instant orgasm of heroin-level ecstasy.

[–]the_dirtiest 123 points124 points  (2 children)

I literally just got out of the theater, so my memory of it is pretty clear... what "ham-fisted feminist agenda" are you referring to? I have no clue what you're talking about.

[–]Agave 34 points35 points  (1 child)

I think he is referring to a lot of the politically correct plot points that, at times, seemed forced into the movie. This would be things like all the male characters being losers, bumbling morons, or evil. Or Chewbacca being meat-shamed. Or some weird side-story about capitalism being bad and something about horse-racing. Or how all the major female roles were either knowing wise women who don't make mistakes or a young female jedi with no training who is somehow the most powerful person in the galaxy. I think he's saying ham-fisted because politically correct ethics and a sense of morality have always been a part of the Star Wars franchise, ROTJ being a great example of this, but the sentiments were naturally a part of the writing and felt normal and not "forced." In this movie, it seemed like they had some kind of script, and that script was vetted over by feminists with a bunch of the politically correct stuff just pasted in after the fact, making the film itself watch like a poorly glued together puzzle with pieces missing.

[–]allihn 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Oh my god, this is just so accurate. It's like they had a friggin list of social justice things to make a point about. They really just distract the plot more than do good.

[–]LuigiPunch 126 points127 points  (0 children)

" a ham-fisted feminist agenda"

I'm sure you're a reasonable, stable individual.

Edit:holy fuck did this get linked somewhere? Last time I looked I had -7, then 14, now a day later 98? Crazy.

[–]sugaki 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I was mildly entertained with both TPM and even TLJ somewhat. But while the latter is watchable as a movie, it's disastrous as part of a trilogy and universe.

With all the dumb parts of Phantom Menace, at least you could find solace that it doesn't take away from the magic of the originals (except for midichlorians). TLJ nullifies and trivializes the struggle and triumph of the original trilogy, since we're apparently back to square one. Evil empire, rebels on the run.

The worst part of TLJ is it destroyed the suspension of disbelief. The your-mama jokes and ham-fisted feminist undertones undercut the sense you're in a science fantasy universe.

[–]Souppilgrim 22 points23 points  (0 children)

You are terribly correct. The one redeeming thing about the prequels is that they were made, however awkwardly, with care for fans. Yeah they dropped the ball in a million ways, but at least they weren't made as a middle finger to star wars fans like TLJ was.

[–]humblehumanbean 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Rey looked a little chunkier in this movie, the food on the island must be good.

[–]IceCreaaams 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Calves were thicccc

[–]Souppilgrim 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah, there is like 3 shots where she looks like Hank Hill for some reason.

[–]Coffee_Pyramid 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes, I noticed this too. Honestly, I believe she was retaining water, or maybe an allergic reaction, and it happened sometime during the scenes when she and Luke begin uphill the steps to train and during the end of the Snoke fight scene. They made it worse by filming terribly at an angle where her neck and jawline were hard to distinguish. Its a shame because Daisy Ridley is in such great shape and is so beautiful.

[–]Selendile 26 points27 points  (10 children)

Okay, last comment, I promise....

I keep seeing people say "But Luke contemplating killing Ben is consistent! He nearly killed Vader in ROTJ, then didn't! See! Same!!"....

Yeah, except in the case of Vader, HE LEARNED A LESSON. He threw his saber away. His character grew; he learned to let go of his hate. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF HIS ARC IN THE OT. So no, this isn't a fair point. The decision to take his character the way TLJ did is a HUMONGOUS step backwards for his character. It essentially IGNORES the whole point of his character arc in the OT.

There. The next time any of you get in an argument with someone defending this pile of garbage of a film and they bring up this point, you're ready to counter it. :)

[–]nocommentyet 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Yeah, accepting this movie's narrative just kind of breaks all 7 of the prior movies, and for Luke's story arc, it breaks episode's I through VI. Luke enters ESB hating Vader and seeking to get revenge on him for the death of his father and Obi-Wan. The threat Vader poses to his friends motivates him to abandon his training early to destroy Vader and save his friends. Again, Luke's impulsivity and need to be a hero drive him to rash action -- but it stems from his love for his friends and family.

Then Vader becomes family.

When he nearly kills Vader at ROTJ, it's because Vader is threatening his loved ones again, his sister. But he stops. As you said, he learned his lesson. Rage-driven violence is not the way for him as a Jedi. No matter what Vader had said and done, even though Luke was scared for his loved ones, he didn't and wouldn't reject Vader.

Palpatine knew he had truly lost. Palpatine is a patient, master manipulator, but he knew he had lost Luke. And Luke saved his father and everyone else he loved and the galaxy. HIS FAITH WAS REWARDED. When you see your faith rewarded like that, it confirms the choice, sets it in your heart. It takes a lot to break that faith. The audience knows this because we can all empathize with this.

I said it breaks all six of the first episodes because Anakin made the opposite decision, and gave into rage and violence driven by fear of the loss of his loved ones. This is in part because the Jedi Order didn't believe you could have love for family and also be a Jedi. Luke proved this wrong. And Luke became a Jedi Master.

If they want to undermine all of that, they need to tell a better story, a much better story. Or give us any story at all besides "people can change in 30 years". Everything Luke did, including his biggest mistakes, he did because he loved his friends and family. Ben was his family, the child of his sister and best friend. He probably held that kid when he was born. There's no way.

[–]Slycross 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Actually it even breaks episode 8. I mean really break your own trilogy @.@ wow.

[–]ZacPensol 7 points8 points  (0 children)

There. The next time any of you get in an argument with someone defending this pile of garbage of a film and they bring up this point, you're ready to counter it. :)

Thank you. Now we just need a good copypasta reply to all the people who seem to think that because we didn't like how heavily flawed Luke was in TLJ that means we wanted a completely perfect Luke who does no wrong and fixes everything. I can't tell you how many people have replied to me complaining about Luke acting like I (or anyone) had seriously said that I wanted him to be this perfect Jedi Jesus or something which is not what I think any of us wanted so much as a Luke who is still good and wise but is just emotionally broken.

[–]sunofagundota 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I can't get quite over how bad this movie was. It seems like it failed on every level. Circular plots, deus ex's, cringey acting, unearned philosphical exposition, negative character development, almost 0 conflict, contradiciton, and just basically stupid stuff ( Engineer girl saying it was "all worth it" to free horses 200 yards from the capital of a space faring city).

Yet, reading the discussion, and reviews and podcast (including /filmcast) I'm shocked to see it even mixed on average. I mean nothing about this film is acceptable except some of the effects and imagery.

[–]JsKid666 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I recommend you watch the moviebob YT video about that. I'm on mobile, so sorry, no links. He explains better than I could.

[–]uncletroll 10 points11 points  (2 children)

That dude's video was funny and well spoken... but it doesn't address /u/Selendile 's criticism.
Instead of addressing it, he begs the question by saying that Luke's journey is similar to King Arthur's... and King Arthur had a bad finish.

To see, this I have two questions for you.
What lesson did King Arthur learn, which allowed him to triumph in his primary struggle? What failure of Arthur's lead to his downfall?

In the case of Luke, he mastered his emotions in RoTJ. In TLJ, he failed, because he lost control of his emotions.

[–]JsKid666 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yeah, maybe is my way of seeing things, but in my opinion one does not really master his emotions (only a sith deals in absolutes, and all). He can control them, but most lessons are learned repeatedly, if at all. Jedi are shown to be constantly fighting the dark side of the force and, as noted in the video, Luke was believing a bit too much in the whole hero of legend narrative and that caused him to think he could solve all problems. But he did however control his emotions (like he did in RotJ), and did not kill Kylo. The Ventress novel (which is cannon) explains the dark side is like trying to fill a well that keeps getting deeper and it is shown to be a constant tug on every force user's mind. Just because Luke is the hero of the OG trilogy doesn't mean he's a perfect character (that would be boring), and the hubris of him being the "one" is what causes him to have that flash of "I can end it now", as explained in the video.

[–]uncletroll 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's all well and good for you to interpret the OT differently than most people. And Luke's behavior in TLJ is fine, given the way you see the OT.
But if you view the OT as a classical Hero's Journey, where the hero undergoes apotheosis, then Luke's behavior in TLJ is VERY inconsistent with it.
And this is the very argument that was being discussed... and you provided MovieBob's video as a rebuttal to that specific argument. And it's not. And your follow up comment is not.

[–]Selendile 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Just did, at your suggestion. I can't say I agree. But even if I did, my counter argument would be "Is it too much to ask to break the mold, then?" Thanks for pointing out that video though. While I disagree with it, it was well made and carefully thought out. I just disagree. lol

[–]Slycross 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The problem is disney used two differ ideals from 2 differ directors. Why do this in a trilogy? They almost had it where the third one was goin be a totally differ director, but 3 turn it down. So they went back to JJ abrams. Disney is letting rian do his own trilogy. I think thats awesome. Why? Bc it will be one path one vision in that trilogy. When you have to many hands in the pot it becomes gross, nasty, and not even close to what you wanted.

[–]X_CodeMan_X 11 points12 points  (5 children)

4:20 & 8:15 - Kathleen Kennedy Lies Her Ass Off


[–]SonofNamek 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Well, of course she does. Her job as the boss is to make sure they look good before anything else. That job requires ass kissing and lying.

That said, I think some of the hate she gets is undeserved. Being someone closely involved with the OT and Lucas, I think she really wants to preserve SW legacy and catch lightning in a bottle once again but she just doesn't know how.

I am hoping she realizes Rian Johnson is just not a good fit.

[–]Dr__Nick 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Doesn’t he have a trilogy all his own coming?

[–]SonofNamek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah but seeing as how she has canned people in the past, I'm hoping she'll see Rian Johnson is just not a good fit.

Unfortunately, I think they get along too much.

[–]fleeting-glimpse 14 points15 points  (0 children)

That interaction at 4:20 gets me blazin'.

"Luke is so important to TLJ"

"I'm glad you think so."

Why is Luke important?

He teaches Rey 1 theoretical lesson on what the force is (though maybe he should take lessons from Rey on how to use it).

He then delays the first order for 10 minutes. It's not even clear they needed those 10 minutes. Or that a small explosion wouldn't have provided the same utility. Or having Finn/Rose get the crystal foxes to stampede, that'd do it.

I support Mark Hamill in all his endeavors and loved Luke Skywalker, but Jake is a sorry substitute.

[–]FullMetalBitch 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The longer she stays in charge of SW the worse everything will be.

[–]greywolfau 23 points24 points  (2 children)

I am so fucking bitter at this film, I can literally afford one movie in the cinema every few months. I made the horrible choice of TLJ over Jumanji. Now I'm saving for Black Panther, probably going to have to miss a January movie altogether.

[–]truthdoctor 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I've had enough of Disney for awhile. I will be torrenting the rest of their movies because as far as I'm concerned, they owe me money for having paid for TLJ, TFA and Avengers.

[–]greywolfau 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I enjoy the Marvel flicks, but I can see how others don't. Personally, I won't even watch another Star Wars movie until it's free to air, I'm not wasting my valuable bandwidth on it.

[–]greywolfau 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Ouch, 25 days to fall below $2 million dollars daily. If this didn't have Star Wars in front of the name, it never would have made it's money back. The bad word of mouth is killing this film, and no doubt the fear critics would be cut off like the L.A. Times was is the only reason they gave it a generous score and conned so many people into going in the first few days.

[–]funlickr 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Wonder if TLJ will bring down Rotten Tomatoes the same way Enron brought down Arthur Anderson. Im officially skeptical of RT ratings

[–]Grokrok 7 points8 points  (1 child)

The theater owners must be hating this, it's playing to empty Imax/XD/RPx screens, while the more popular movies are crammed into smaller screens.

[–]greywolfau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I saw that Jumanji has increased the screens it's being shown on since last Friday, I wonder when the theatres will be allowed by Disney to start drastically reducing the number of showings for TLJ. If it wasn't for the Marvel sledgehammer they can wield I think we would have seen a revolt already.

There are a HELL of a lot of empty seats out there going unused in TLJ sessions.

[–]Yobie_of_the_S 34 points35 points  (32 children)

Question: Why is the response to this film overwhelmingly positive on r/StarWars? I can completely understand being willing to overlook flaws and enjoy the movie, but it seems like 99% of posts there will barely acknowledge any flaws. I think the reason people are so harsh here in this thread is because we love Star Wars and want to see it made well.

[–]AbanoMex 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Remember how apologetic was r/dc_cinematic when suicide squad was first recieving backlash? well, there you go, but if the trend is true, then we will see people accepting how bad it was in 3 months.

[–]mr3inches 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Thats such a lame point and you sound super condescending when you say that. Just because someone enjoys a movie and doesn't want to point out all of its flaws doesn't mean they don't love Star Wars. Honestly the biggest thing that sucks about Star Wars right now is the fans.

[–]Yobie_of_the_S 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have nothing against people who like the film, and I don't think that they love Star Wars any less than those who did not like the film. I was just wondering why the counterviewpoint is essentially absent from the main Star Wars sub.

[–]Selendile 8 points9 points  (2 children)

The biggest problem with SW right now is TLJ.

I've been a fan my entire life. Hell, I even enjoyed the prequels when they first came out (I'm in the small minority on that point). The prequels were different but still 'Star Wars' to me. I saw TFA, and while I hated how it pretty much undid the entire OT, and was a soft world-reset, I was able to enjoy it for the most part (I'd give it a 7.5/10). Having said all that....TLJ is terrible. It fails even on the most basic of story-telling levels. I think Rian is a decent director, but an atrocious writer/story-teller. I don't think he had the experience necessary to helm a film of this renown. I also think he was careless in the decisions he took with the story.

I also think that this trilogy is damn near un-salvageable....

[–]mr3inches -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

I think you bring up some valid arguments. But can't you appreciate them at least trying to take the franchise in a new direction?

[–]Selendile 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I can appreciate the cinematography. The effects were very well done.

I can appreciate the attempt at changing directions. Frankly, It’s my opinions that this movie failed to really change course in any significant way.

I can’t get on board with the decisions made, story wise. Nor can i get on board with the liberties Johnson took with the lore.

And frankly, i felt like Rian Johnson perused the fan forums, took in all the fan ideas....then decided to just come up with something NO ONE came up with, just for the sake of being different. His means of “subverting expectations” doesn’t make for good story telling (once again, my opinion). I mean, nothing screams this to me more than his little “#YourSnokeTheorySucks” thing. He was essentially trolling fans for putting more thought into the character than he did. I mean, if that’s not a kick in the teeth, what is?

[–]truthdoctor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Welcome to the age of tribalism, paid shills and corporate brainwashing.

[–]Ryuuzoji 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's like going on /r/DC_Cinematic ... They don't really watch the movies, they just watch what they wanted them to be.

[–]sunofagundota 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well said. Sub-reddits are ech-chambers and tend to err on the positive side.

[–]fragileegos2017 19 points20 points  (8 children)

That sub has become a steaming pile of fanboy shit. Any criticism of anything SW will be downvoted to hell.

Also, I would bet that Disney has influence in that sub

[–]mr3inches 1 point2 points  (7 children)

You say this as if other peoples opinions affect you in any way....

[–]fragileegos2017 -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

shut up, small dick.

[–]mr3inches 1 point2 points  (5 children)

lol salty. Maybe you should use more mental energy to try and be positive and not whine like a little kid over a movie. Grow up.

[–]fragileegos2017 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

anyone who still says "lol" should def not tell other people to grow up.

[–]mr3inches 2 points3 points  (3 children)

def isn't a word either though......

[–]fragileegos2017 -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

[–]mr3inches 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You know what I meant though. You can't honestly try and one-up my grammar when you shorten real words like definitely to "def". You are just a hypocrite.

[–]Slycross 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Wow your right. I mean everyone of them cannot tell you why they love it, they say the same thing critics have said. Like mindless drones. Basically saying "not for fans: like wtf? Movies of any series should be for the fans. Lol. I feel like some of them are getting paid or incentives pushing what the critics are saying. Which I know majority of critics prob getting paid off by disney or are afraid to say anything negative against the juggernaught. Mmmmm kind of feels like disney is the galactic empire. Lol

[–]vrnate 11 points12 points  (9 children)

I wondered about that myself.

The only answer I can come up with, is that the users who frequent r/StarWars are looking for any portion of the movie to celebrate rather than looking at the movie as a whole.

For example I recall a thread where they were circle jerking each other over how awesome the red room fight between Rey/Ren and the Imperial Guard was.

Yes, the scene (by itself, with no context) was cool, but did not make the entire film good.

[–]mr3inches 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Why is that a bad thing? Its a Star Wars sub... of course they are going to celebrate Star Wars....

[–]fragileegos2017 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You say this as if other peoples opinions affect you in any way....

[–]mr3inches 0 points1 point  (0 children)

shut up, small dick.

[–]vrnate 4 points5 points  (4 children)

It's a bad thing when they are celebrating a bad movie. TLJ was a massive insult to Star Wars in general. Celebrating it just encourages more bad movies to be made.

[–]mr3inches 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I see your point, but the only thing that encourages more Star Wars movies to be made is how much money they make. TLJ already made a shit load of money regardless of the critics/fans views. So I guess my point is why do you care what another sub has to say about the movie? Just let the people enjoy their discussions. It doesn't affect you at all.

[–]vrnate 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I'm not overly bothered by it. OP asked why r/StarWars is so positive about the movie when the majority of fans and audience scores are negative.

I simply tried to come up with a plausible explanation.

[–]mr3inches -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

It's about context... Well when you use words like circlejerk you are making it fairly obvious you feel superior to them simply because they enjoyed a movie that you didn't.

[–]vrnate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well that's just like... your opinion man.

[–]Grokrok 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I didn't think even that scene was cool - fighting looked awkward at best.

[–]greywolfau 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Because you have Star Wars fans with blinkers on so tight it strangles the oxygen to their brain, and people so determined to see affirmative action to succeed that if it has a woman/women lead they will overlook EVERYTHING to tell us how great it is to see women finally being taken seriously (ignoring all the fantastic women in film before the year 2017).

[–]HELLOMrJackpots 14 points15 points  (0 children)

(ignoring all the fantastic women in film before the year 2017).

Even in Star Wars! The amount of awesome female characters in The Clone Wars compared to what they're doing now is like night & day. One Mother Talzin has more depth than the entirety of what we've gotten out of Disney. Hera is the only decent character we've gotten from the Disney-era and even that's mostly on Filoni.

However, since we're in an era that loves to politicize that angle; all you have to do is claim anyone who sees how paper-thin these characters are is a "rampant, MRA misogynist manchild".

[–]HELLOMrJackpots 14 points15 points  (0 children)

r/StarWars is one weird echo chamber. I don't know if it comes at the moderation level or it's the users, but it's about as weird as r/Nintendo where people can say things like "Thanks Nintendo for removing online messaging because now my 95 year old grandpa isn't afraid to touch games" (and I say that as a person who generally loves Nintendo).

It's like an odd vacuum that doesn't even acknowledge how the rest of the world operates or thinks.

[–]vrnate 26 points27 points  (5 children)

So, what was the point of introducing Admiral Hairdo as a character? She doesn't advance the story any more than any other random "plug and play" character could?

And the "heroic sacrifice" would have had much more gravitas had it been someone that the audience identified with and cared about.

It's been said before, but Admiral Ackbar would have been a much better fit for that role.

[–]Indigetes 15 points16 points  (4 children)

[–]Ryuuzoji 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why didn't they in the beginning go "Alright, guys. Who here is ready for a potential suicide mission. Most of us won't survive [describe bombing scene from early in the movie.] Alright, us 50 are in for it? Then we draw 3 lots and those 3 people light speed a bomber each into Snoke's destroyer."

[–]sunofagundota 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why did the empire let them escape? "They won't look for smaller ships"

That's actually what happened in the movie. They never thought about escape ships.

We start off rebels escaping a planet, we end with rebels escaping a planet. Just a lot of them are dead because of impulsive, reckless behavior or arrogant behavior. I thought that was the dark side's riff.

[–]Pretendin_to_work 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Why did the Empire even invent Death Stars when apparently hyperspacing a Star Destroyer into a planet would blow it up just fine?

[–]matyes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So Klye from Because Science made this video

Says that a Paperclip at .9999c is 67 Little Boys So the small paperclip weights .4g 1 000 000g=1t If we use F-16, 8,570 kg dry weight. You need 21425000 paperclips. Video says one paperclip is 67 Hiroshima nuke of 15 kiloton each. So 1005 kiloton. 21425000*1005=21,532,125,000 So 21,532,125 megaton. or 1435475000/1.4E9 Little Boys

What happens with meteor near light speed

That is alot of power

[–]Wild_Flower11 29 points30 points  (9 children)

IMO the only character that has actual development, struggle, a motive and a learning curve is Kylo Ren. Hes stuck in a complete mindfuck and im so damn curious to see what happens to him in the end. Legit the only character I care about at this point

Everyone else is either too powerful without explanation or just randomly added in the story without character developpement

[–]greywolfau 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Oh but Poe Damaran learned his lesson in not obeying orders too ! That's real character development ! Take a roguish character and punish the shit out of his every decision for a full movie, and then turn him into a 'matured' yes man !

[–]vrnate 15 points16 points  (1 child)

I didn't like the movie, but I have to agree with that. Adam Driver would have made a fantastic Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader in Episodes 2 and 3.

[–]Wild_Flower11 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Adam Driver is really good in this role imo! everyone is gushing and talking about his damn shirtless scene and im like yall are forgetting how good of an actor he is cuz of that, talk more about that instead. He did very very good with a shit script

[–]Camilla2244 6 points7 points  (0 children)

agreed hes so damn captivating as a chracter because he's not one dimensional like many others! probably mentally tortured since childhood by snoke, wants to end his struggles so he kills his dad thinking that will completely turn him to the dark and he wont live in conflict with himself 24/7 but doing that probably fucked him up even more and he feel remorseful about it. Hes not completely gone because he didnt kill his mother in the end, he couldnt bring himself to do it.

He wants to end it all, the jedi, the order and start from scratch probably because he's so sick of the conflict and the "who am i really" questions. He asked Rey to join him since she's legit most probably the only actual human interaction he has had in years. Its very interesting. Legit the only good thing about this damn movie, everything else is wtf

[–]Jake_Skywalker_ 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Hes stuck in a complete mindfuck and im so damn curious to see what happens to him in the end. Legit the only character I care about at this point

At the end of the film, he throws down his headset, and says "I HATE YOU STUPID WOMEN ARGHHHHH" as Rey strikes him down while she's mostly incapacitated

[–]Wild_Flower11 1 point2 points  (2 children)

wait what??

[–]Le_Faveau 1 point2 points  (1 child)

There needs to be some social commentary about videogames. I guess.

[–]Ordinaryundone 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Look forward to Rey destroying the First Order's next big superweapon, the Ga'Mer Gate.

[–]ThreatMatrix 14 points15 points  (3 children)

OMG. The EP VIII we deserve. This guy has only written two parts so far but it's so much better than Disney's version. When it's done it will be the only version I'll accept. The Lost Jedi https://youtu.be/9BWlIdbjG60

[–]matyes 11 points12 points  (2 children)

So some random guy on the net has told a better story than, a director who gets paid a ton of money. I am sad, are you sad?

[–]ThreatMatrix 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I was sad until I found this guys version. (I will forever be mad at KK, RJ and Disney)

[–]matyes 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just wish stories like this get told on the screen. Not...TLJ

[–]nocommentyet 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Was Starkiller Base even mentioned?

[–]sbi9dt 17 points18 points  (1 child)

There is no starkiller base now. let the past die.

[–]truthdoctor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Apparently it's a good idea to continually invest most of your resources into giant bases that are blown up with the smallest of spacecraft and kill most of your men. It is a good idea to centralize most of your force into one destructible sphere instead of spreading out your forces in smaller destroyers in a vast galaxy filled with many planets.

New for episode episode IX, get ready for the all new and totally not done in any form before: Galaxy killer mega death star! Surely this one will survive a movie!

[–]Ordinaryundone 18 points19 points  (2 children)

I don't think so. It wouldn't have been terribly relevant I guess but it is weird that losing a planet sized superweapon, along with all accompanying personnel, troops, and material has apparently done nothing to slow down the First Order and has in fact somehow resulted in a net loss for the Resistance. The Empire losing the Death Star was one thing, they owned pretty much the entire galaxy and the station was only their newest toy; it getting blown up just reset the situation back to before it was finished I.E. they still own the galaxy. You'd think a supposedly separatist faction/splinter group thing like the First Order would feel that sort of loss more keenly but they apparently have Super Dreadnoughts and Star Destroyers and extra Sith Lords just lying around in storage so who knows?

[–]Dr__Nick 5 points6 points  (1 child)

You'd think at some point, in these long ass movies, they could have given us a TLDR about WTF has beeng going on with the Rebellion / Resistance (Resistance to what, were they not in control of the Republic with the fall of the Empire?) and Imperial remnants since ROTJ? With all the other stuff they had time for.....

[–]Ordinaryundone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If the movie had been set, like, 5-10 years after Endor then I could see there still being a "Resistance". Palpatine may have been the glue that was holding it all together but Empires don't immediately collapse just because the Emperor dies. There would still be a chain of succession, or at least individuals and organizations making their own bids for power in the vacuum and the First Order could have been one of these. It would explain the relatively small scale of the conflict and how the FO still seem to have access to all this stuff despite having little to no actual legitimacy.

But 30 years later?! It's been 30 years and the Rebellion is STILL an underdog while the Empire apparently completely restructured and re-branded itself? What happened, did they call a time out? Are the Empire and Republic even things anymore, or is it just two small groups fighting each other forever while everyone else just gets on with their lives? The FO doesn't seem overly concerned with politics, we never meet any Moffs or bureaucrats, and the Resistance is apparently just enough people to fit on 3 ships so what's the end game here?

[–]Selendile 33 points34 points  (13 children)

Also, another quick note:

If Luke isn't in Episode IX, his departure in Episode VIII will be even more hilariously terrible...

"See you around, kid" wink...

Immediately Dies, Never heard from again. lmaaaaooo

I mean, when he delivered that line, my audience CHEERED. The confusion that settled in after he died 10 seconds later was palpable. People were even chuckling at how terribly it was written. How can any critic justify a 90% review. Seriously. lmao

[–]Bezoedelaar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Jedis becoming immortal is a Thing now.

[–]greywolfau 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This will seriously be the movie where people stop listening to critics. They were completely complicit in selling us a wagon of horse shit, and if I hear one person try and justify the visuals as a reason it was a good movie I swear I will fucking Unibomb the everloving shit out of them.

[–]NMiele 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Turning 40 in a few shot months and yes the ending was terrible. I ranted for the rest of the evening and at this point can't see myself watching the last installment of this trilogy. Luke is basically the most powerful force user (in the EU) to have ever lived, how do you kill him off before he even becomes Grandmaster?

[–]jonm111 17 points18 points  (3 children)

I've heard people argue that this movie was about failure and how things won't always go as planned which is a fair argument. My problem with that argument is that the movie was still ambiguous/pointless half of the time, so much so that you ultimately feel unsatisfied. You can make a movie about failure but at least make it so that it gives the audience a sense of closure.

[–]Coffee_Pyramid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I came out of the theater thinking the same thing. That failure and learning from your mistakes was the big picture. Then I realized that the old people are basically insurance and will take the fall and die for your beliefs whether light or dark side.

[–]Jake_Skywalker_ 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I've heard people argue that this movie was about failure and things won't always go as planned

Like the writing.

It's a meta commentary on complete failure.

[–]SonofNamek 9 points10 points  (4 children)

I guarantee he'll be in Ep IX for only 15 minutes before disappearing from the franchise forever.

Disney's Ep VII and VIII were originally conceived with a mandate that was "don't let Luke overshadow Rey's story." Unfortunately, the writers/directors took that to mean don't focus on Luke's story at all because it was inevitably going to lead to him overshadowing anyway.

In other words, Luke's final role is going to be extremely disappointing in Ep IX as well that he may as well not even be in it.

[–]FullMetalBitch 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Ironic, people mostly talk about Luke anyway.

[–]Coffee_Pyramid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Even the kids at the end are playing with a Luke action figure made of horse hair.

[–]SonofNamek 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Yeah, apparently, the story goes that Lucas presented his treatment and the fact that Rey was overshadowed was a (if not the) major reason it was rejected.

Kira/Rey was going to be the main character anyway but JJ and Arndt thought Luke took up too much space so they got rid of him in TFA.

Well, I mean...no shit, he'll overshadow everyone....he's the hero of the entire series. Obviously, Rey needs to be the focal point but to completely ignore Luke is just asinine and shows how clueless these guys are.

[–]mateo2450 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If I were Mark Hamill - I wouldn't come back. I would say something to the effect of, "well, I think the movies are visually stunning and I love the work of JJ and Rian, but I think its time I let this character go."

To come back as a Force ghost at this point would be comical.

[–]Cinemalegend 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Spot on! Nothing was earned, Kylo literally controlled an entire empire by flicking a saber on with the force...that was it.

But I guess we don’t know if Snoke was that great anyway, just some random leader.

But agree with everything you said and it came out too that Daisy wasn’t a fan of the script either.

[–]Selendile 43 points44 points  (21 children)

Imagine Harry Potter was brought back to film in 15 years. Harry Potter is an alcoholic who quit magic. Ron is a criminal in Azkhaban. Hermoine is working a dead end job, having given up on her dreams. This is the new Star Wars trilogy. lol

Anyways, I disliked the film immensely. Furthermore, I don't accept Rian Johnson's 'martyr'-like attitude, suggesting that his portrayal of Luke was necessary to let the story unfold. I've posted this idea about a week ago in this thread, but I've fleshed it out a bit since it's been stuck in my head.

We know from TFA that Luke has exiled himself on that island. We don't know why or for what purpose, but he's there. We also knew he failed Ben Solo. So, is it possible to write a story that places him squarely on that island, having failed his Jedi pupil, without making him a coward who turned his back on his friends? Challenge accepted, Rian Johnson!

Firstly, Luke Skywalker contemplating killing a sleeping child? "Oh but it was only for a second!" No. Just no. You shouldn't have to be told that's a terrible idea. We COULD, though, have him confront Ben. The result is the same as the film: Ben knocks him out, and kills all his students.

Could Luke save the day? Kill Snoke, kill Ben? Sure. That should, at least briefly, be touched on: that he probably can directly affect change. But this story isn't his. So we need a reason to take him out of the fight, without making him a coward; keep him true to his character. Luke knows that he cannot be the one to face Ben or Snoke. He knows in his heart that no matter how he tries to justify it to himself, he would only be killing them out of revenge for the death of his students. It would irredeemably put him on the path to the dark side, and being as powerful as he is, would only replace Snoke with someone worse. He CANNOT face Snoke or Ben. This ushers in the need for a new hero.

Okay, but he's still a coward for exiling himself. Following the destruction of his temple, and realizing he cannot face Snoke/Ben, he turns to the Force for guidance (because he's Luke Skywalker and OF COURSE HE WOULD). He gets a 'vision'; that his purpose, and the hope of the galaxy, awaits him on Ach-To. But while the purpose is clear, the message isn't; He has no idea what/when awaits him there. He spends years waiting for the fruition of this vision. But he trusts in the force, and trusts the salvation of the galaxy can be found there. No longer a coward. He's trusting in the force; a lesson he LEARNED IN THE ENTIRE OT! See that? Character consistency.

Enter Rey on Ach-To. A young woman, clearly strong in the force, with his old lightsaber to boot; confirmation to Luke that she was sent to him by the force. Also, this makes the scene of Rey having visions when grabbing the lightsaber and subsequently wanting to find Luke make much more sense; she was being guided by the force. Luke, who was beginning to lose faith (can be told to the audience in a few lines of dialogue) believes she's the hope for the galaxy the force sent to him. He trains her, etc etc.

Meshes with TFA, true to all characters, doesn't RUIN characters, makes sense.

Is it the best story ever? No. But it's WAY better than what we got. Thanks for reading, I just needed to vent this lol. This movie left me feeling very badly....

[–]Slycross 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A million times better story already. Aparently it was suppose to be even worse til hamill kept badering Rian that luke would not do that.

[–]NMiele 11 points12 points  (7 children)

100% agree with you. Terrible story. They basically nullify all of the books in the EU that have been written. Why? So you can Disney Princess the fuck out of the franchise...what a waste.

[–]tomtheawesome123 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I thought EU wasn't canon anymore ? cries in a corner

[–]NMiele 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Yes - screw Disney

[–]tomtheawesome123 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Man EU did so much to the lore though it was a bit overpowered and got crazy with Luke.

[–]NMiele 0 points1 point  (2 children)

True, but still, he can't live forever and I would much rather see movies about that than what we've currently got. I realize it would be hard at this point but at least the could have written him off after starting from a point somewhere late in the cannon where he is the grandmaster then they could move forward how they like. Years from now they could recast go back and tell the stories about how he became grandmaster, if they so desired.

[–]tomtheawesome123 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That would not make sense. Luke would not be In-Character. EU Luke already made the same mistake he did with Kylo Ren with Darth Caedus. How would Kylo Ren go to the dark side if we are using EU canon? Isn't the reason that Kylo Ren went to dark side partially because Luke was "no match for his darkness?". EU luke is far more powerful than the movie version.

[–]NMiele 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All I am saying is that I would rather watch movies about Luke's rise to grandmaster. I am not implying anything else.

[–]Jake_Skywalker_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So you can Disney Princess the fuck out of

All while Bill Murraying Luke. Shame on Disney.

[–]hafabee 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Love your ideas, wish that the Disney corporation had the narrative vision that you do, they don't seem to be able to tell a decent story anymore.

If you wanted to simplify your character motivations for Luke not coming to Han's rescue and helping out Leia and his other friends (not to mention the galaxy at large) and abandoning his nephew Ben you can just make it that Luke's X-Wing was completely irreparable and he had been stuck on that island for years without transport. Easy fix. Luke's first hesitation at seeing Ray can be explained away by the fact that he hadn't seen anyone in years and he was wondering for a moment if she were even real.

Anyway, just about any treatment for Luke Skywalker would have been better than what we got. I have absolutely no faith in Disney being able to do any future Star Wars movies justice after watching The Last Jedi, it's clear that they have no idea what they're doing nor that they understand the icons and mythology of Star Wars. It's all just surface nostalgia to them to be exploited.

[–]SonofSniglet 7 points8 points  (10 children)

Let me tell you, I absolutely hate fan fiction. I never read any of these multi-paragraph long diatribes about how to fix this and here is why that and feminism the other.

But, fuck - you nailed it. Bang on head, you nailed it. You let the characters maintain integrity in a way that Rian didn't. You cured the problem of Rey being uber-powerful without any training. Hell, Yoda doesn't even need to burn down the library tree anymore.

Bravo! Just bravo!

[–]Selendile 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Thanks! For what it’s worth, this is the first time EVER I felt the need to post a fan-fic story. That’s how badly I hated this movie.