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I'd just like to say how much I hate Meraki

I signed up for and attended two of their fucking demos for which they were supposed to send me hardware and they never did.

When I called the jerk who I was supposed to call to get the free access point he didn't even accept my responses to his questions. It was incredibly rude. He asked what my favorite feature was and when I told him he just asked again.

My company is never buying Meraki products.

72% Upvoted
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Hey, save it for Rant Wednesday! LOL

Booming economy. They don't care that they missed the opportunity to give away $1,000 in product.

Their products are excellent for their intended use. You'd be punishing yourself more than anyone (they just had a billion dollar quarter) if you're one of the use cases where it saves dozens of hours per installation, like us.

It'll swing the other way.

It has been working for us too. Good for our size of customer.

To some, the phone is a weapon
19 points · 9 months ago

This is so true. I have so many "traditional networking" friends who love to hate on Meraki. Meanwhile as a one-man MSP show, I have a dozen stories where their gear made my life much easier.

Don't get me wrong, they have their little use-case box. If you fit life is great.

Can you speak a bit more about how it saves you time?

I always deploy UniFi gear because I’m reluctant to deploy gear that requires an active subscription to use but I’ll definitely consider switching if there is real benefit.

I agree that Meraki is super easy to manage but the cost is just astronomical, especially when you factor in MSP markup.

Their 24 port switches are what? $5,000 with 5 years worth of licensing? That's just crazy expensive for a 5-10 person office with computers and VOIP phones.

5 points · 9 months ago

What happens after the 5 year license expires?

31 points · 9 months ago

You buy an updated license or throw the switch in the trash.

Why in the world would someone do that vs Ubiquiti?

11 points · 9 months ago

Well you also get full warranty & enterprise support, included in the license.

OK but most small medium business is set and forgot on the network side.

At $800 for a 48 port poe managed switch, it's cheaper to just buy a new one if it breaks compared to a Cisco. Obviously in the case of not needing the Cisco specific features.

Of $200 for an Edgeswitch you could buy like 4 and run them in parallel :)

So it seems like this is more geared for businesses where the downtime to install a new switch or something would cost them more than the support contract. We have a small business and we lease space at a datacenter and we're all Ubiquiti. I have never had a piece of gear fail ever. Not that it couldn't, but for our more mission-critical datacenter stuff we just run duplicate everything. Two Edgerouter Pros at $600 total is still SO much cheaper than the alternatives as far as I could tell.

Comment deleted9 months ago
JunOS is love
7 points · 9 months ago

the UniFi line is pretty bare bones when it comes to features

Yeah but also when it comes to the price. Not everyone needs those features. Most people just want reliable things at a price that doesn't break the bank.

I suppose it depends on what you need. I always thought it was really robust.

Less thought required to make sure that you are able to manage it at some date in the future.

-6 points · 9 months ago(1 child)

Hm - I've never had problems with it working. Occasionally a firmware is bad I suppose.

I see what you mean, though. Pretty much get what you pay for.

At that point you have a paperweight. Although, there has been some traction putting hacked together 3rd party firmware on some of their products already, so maybe in 5 years that will be possible as well.

That is really interesting. Where can I find more info on this?

lol what? What does home grown meat have to do with Meraki? haha

Whoops! Sorry, I didn't even look at what your comment was referring to, I just assumed it was part of a conversation I'd been posting on the last few days. Whoops! To be fair, I made my last comment on this post four months ago. :P

Here's some info:

CompTIA A+ Network+ Security+
1 point · 9 months ago

You can't cloud manage it anymore.

Yup. That’s what we run into as well. Nowadays we sell just the MX and MRs to those clients, and give them an SG300 for switching. I could argue going away from Meraki altogether in those instances, but being able to easily and remotely monitor and troubleshoot their WAN and WiFi is an easy sell.

Not the one you are replying to but as someone who works in small, but a lot, of retail locations Meraki MXs are great. We haven't even calculated the man-hour savings yet but we expect it will be several million a year while improving performance.

My favorite feature is the firewall templating... I have no idea why other vendors haven't got on but for intervlan firewalling I just have to specify network name and host id. It does the AND calculation for you and pops in the correct rule for that deployment.... yes... yes... yes.

To some, the phone is a weapon
4 points · 9 months ago
  • Traffic information from any device. Client just has a switch? I can see what (YouTube), and who (IP address) is talking. Just has an AP?, can see same plus filtering at layer 7. (Block all Facebook, one rule super easy) Actually the lack of "Layer 7" firewall rules on UBNT is one of the larger reasons I don't have more deployed along with...

  • Packet capture built into every device. Output can stream to WebUI directly (for simple troubleshooting) or download the pcap for deeper analysis. Remember none of this requires a VPN into the environment.

  • AutoVPN is life saver for a few situations. Throw the MX at branch office where its shared internet from building, VPN will come up and work no problem. Same thing for Cellular backup (that is often carrier grade NAT).

Not going to argue the hardware cost is high (same or more than Cisco enterprise stuff) what people forget is the license also covers hardware failure. This is nice as I can buy used gear and have it covered unlike TAC that wants certified reseller gear (last I checked). License also covers 24/7 support for configuration and troubleshooting. Plus as an MSP I can usually get 35% off retail for both.

Now while the UniFi manager can be accesses remotely thru UBNT's cloud (or directly via punched hole) it is still dependent on a single instance. Granted you can build a lot of resiliency above it, it is still a single server point of failure. While the Meraki Dashboard has a few data centers setup.

And what kind of cost are we looking at for this functionality? Is there an upfront AND yearly component or just a yearly and you 'get' the hardware "free"?

to present some examples (in USD)

Z1 and 4 year subscription for the price of 3 - $275

MX64W (4 LAN plus Wifi) with 4 year - $1200

MX84 "VPN headend" with 4 year - $400

All of these are with the Adv Security licensing.

It's really not all that much, for an access point you're looking at around $100 for a 1 year license which includes 24/7 native English speaking support, the management portal, advanced next day replacement, etc.

$200 for 2 years, and $300 for 5 years.

It's easy because you plug everything in, enter the serial numbers in the online portal, and configure everything from one spot without needing to set up a server for management or configure each device individually.

Well UniFi gear is the same way. We run the one controller, then set a DHCP option to tell the UniFi device where to look for the new controller. As soon as it boots up, it shows up in the controller and someone just clicks "Adopt" on the appropriate "Site" and it auto-provisons along with other settings for the site.

It doesn't have many of the other features like L7 details + youtube blocking + VPN etc though. Well it has the L7 details + automatic VPN - but it requires a USG and we haven't had a chance to play with that all too much.

I think they do have auto VPN but I'm not sure how well it works (All our routing/firewalling is pfSense).

Right, I'm saying meraki doesn't have any of those steps, you don't set up any controllers or DHCP or anything, you just plug the gear in and that's it.

I think what's comparable here is that on Meraki you have to put the device serial number into something in order to manage it. UniFi is the same way, except one extra step of clicking an "adopt" button. Both are very easy in the management adoption.

With unifi you have to run the server somewhere though.

They have a full cloud solution now just like Meraki. Check out UniFi Elite service:

1 point · 9 months ago

But he didn't get his free gear!!! That represents the company as a whole.

Dozens of man hours to configure and install network equipment? You aren’t doing it right if it takes that long.

Aerohive is far superior. Do yourself a favor and start migrating clients. We started installing and selling Meraki before Cisco took over and now the megalith has slowed the pace of innovation to a crawl. That and there are somehow more bugs than ever despite Cisco's traditional rigorous testing process.

Not sure what happened with Meraki when Cisco took the reins but it has all been bad in our experience.

Wow Aerohive? Can't believe they're still in business. Admittedly a fine design, but when they have 50% failure rates out of the box, one has to wonder...

15 points · 9 months ago · edited 9 months ago

Say what you want about Meraki but they are the easiest way to weed out the good resellers from the bad. If they can't get a vendor to cough up a free promotional item for you, they aren't going to be able to help with much else you buy from them.

The sad thing is that Meraki has awful sales reps IME, but the rest of the operation is at least decent. Support is going downhill, but I have certain names that I trust there, and I know how to push and call BS.

The products are mostly solid. MR and MS lines are great, MX is pretty good except for VPN, and I've heard good things about the MV line...

Support is going downhill

Don't agree with you here. Meraki has the best support of any vendor I work with. I can get a native english-speaking level-3 technician on the phone in literally 30 seconds any time of day. Meraki has some issues but support isn't one of them.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion. I've got 2 years of day-to-day under my belt, including helping them identify a dozen+ bugs in various products, some of which were pretty impactful. I once had a regression in the mainline firmware releases that one of the support reps overheard my conversation and identified in a few minutes and rolled back our entire 400+ AP deployment. Since then, I've been consulting and helping clients deploy new AP's, firewalls, and switches in various configurations.

When I say support is going downhill, it can only be based on my experience, but I do have a fair amount. Last month, I made several calls to support trying to get clarification on power requirements regarding 802.3at vs af. None of the reps I spoke to would do more than read me KB articles. I'm not saying it was always great, but I used to be able to disabuse them of the KB articles if I pushed hard enough. They've now hired some hard-headed script readers. The phone tree sometimes doesn't recognize my customer number where that used not to be a requirement at all. As stated above, YMMV, and they may still be better than HP support or something, or maybe hearing an Indian or hispanic accent sends you into a flying rage, but my lived experience has been an objective decline in quality over the last two years (the two prior years were... stable).

Just finished setting up a client vpn for a client of mine today on am MX device.

I almost wanted to tear my hair out. Finally got it running though.

This is strange to hear - I've got 25 of them out there, and it's literally 4 clicks to get the VPNs up. What kind of issues did you run into specifically?

I was attempting to get active directory authentication running, but just ended up doing cloud authentication.

Make sure the target DC for AD auth has an SSL cert. Install IIS, issue one, uninstall IIS.

I'll have to try this. Thanks helpful internet guy!

Aha. I haven't taken that path, I'm just using them for VPN endpoints at small offices and home offices. And they're working flawlessly for that, including Radius auth into AD for SSID authentication.

Prior to this I've setup several sonicwall client vpn (sslvpn) connections with ad authentication, and they work beautifully. This device at this office replaced a sonicwall (not my choice), but before this, all I had dealt with were the meraki mr APs. Those things are frigging amazing.

I'm certain these guys just work remote and collect checks. Every experience I've had has been mediocre. Even my CDW rep whom I've known for years constantly has issues dealing with them. Additionally, the businesses who can use this stuff really don't have other options so they charge through the nose. I imagine being a Meraki rep is not a taxing occupation right now.

I once went to a vendor dinner that touted a free network security camera. I went, no camera. I emailed the reseller who emailed the vendor who responded with "sorry about that - let's setup some time to discuss our product further and we'll bring it then." I'll never do business with a company who doesn't stick to their word.

Did you get an email after the seminar confirming you attended and indicating what further steps to go through?

Original Poster1 point · 9 months ago


Take a look at Ubiquiti UniFi equipment. It doesn't have as extensive network features as some of the Meraki routers, but the Wi-Fi performance is much better, the equipment is much easier to deal with in my opinion, doesn't require annual licensing and the software can be installed "in the cloud" or local.

Gosh unifi is so easy to set up! Especially with the switches. I have never really had any issues and I wish that I coud roll out unifi in a building!

I use the 24p Edge Switches at a non-profit coworking space I support. Aside from a DoA rate of about 30%, they are fine. I wish there was a real layer 3 option though and that they would consolidate the switch line and double down.

Wi-Fi performance is much better, the equipment is much easier to deal with in my opinion, doesn't require annual licensing and the software can be installed "in the cloud" or local.

What do you mean by "Wi-Fi performance"? I have worked with Meraki and Wi-Fi quality was perfect.

As for the rest - how about Ubiquity support taking 3 weeks to get answer from the support regarding why client connected to one AP couldn't communicate with client connected to another AP? Issue was on my side (blocked multicast), but show me an enterprise that would be willing to deal with this kind of support.

You get what you pay for. Ubiquity offers great value for money, Meraki does the same (maybe not great, just very good). I am super happy running Ubiquity at home, but I would not be willing to install it to my clients, as I can't guarantee any uptime or quick resolution of their issues.

I can’t say we have had to call Ubiquiti. I’m a certified UEWA (Ubiquiti Enterprise Wireless Administrator) and they cover the product to great detail in the training and test. We have two other UEWA guys on staff and between the three of us we have never had to contact support. I would highly encourage anyone doing this as an MSP or for a corporation to take that cert training. It’s very useful.

When did you contact their support? They have kicked Support up a few notches in the last couple months to address the slowness concerns you are talking about.

As far as performance, we’ve had some pretty bad issues with Meraki in noisy environments. Even dropping to 20MHz channels on both bands, we had noise floor of about -75 which is really loud and tough to make work with any gear. But so far Ubiquiti has performed better (better mod rates at signal) than Meraki in that environment.

Outside of crazy noise, the Ubiquiti units also allow us to have units entirely outside in the elements with their outdoor rated units. This has come into play for various fairs and concerts we do WiFi for.

But for a normal corporate or home environment, both are pretty comparable to each other. The Ubiquiti has won out though since we can deploy it in closed networks that have zero Internet capability but need WiFi, like factory floors for inventory.

1 point · 9 months ago · edited 9 months ago

As far as performance, we’ve had some pretty bad issues with Meraki in noisy environments.

As far as performance, I have issues with Ubiquity in a non-noisy environment. 2 regular Unifi APs (2.4G only), on one my phone can get 10 Mbps, on another - 30 Mbps (both tests done standing 2 ft. away from AP). Laptop can get over 50 Mbps on both APs. Same firwmare, bought at the same time, etc. Other than this little annoyance, both have been performing well for over 3 years.

Again, for $60 a piece and for home use this is just fine. For enterprise that relies on Wi-Fi for functionality - not so much.

And if you say that it's just Unifi AP that's bad - well, I also have 1 Unifi AC Lite. And except for Windows machine, I find my Mac and phone very often connected to 2.4G network on it. That's despite having band steering enabled with prefer 5G setting. Again, for private house with clean wi-fi spectrum this makes no difference. For a busy office building this would be huge.

My curious side is taking over here. What model of AP was that? Did you adjust any of the cell timing or set minimum connection rates?

What model of AP was that?

Model: Unifi AP, version:

Did you adjust

Negative. The Meraki setup I worked on had about 600 APs (spread around the globe) with well over 3000 users. It would be full time job to keep twiddling with those settings for every AP and every client. Luckily with Meraki you don't need to do that.

You don’t need to do that on UniFi either, But adjusting them even if you don’t need to can still create a better network after adjusting. In any case, if it’s the original UAP that’s 2.4GHz only, those did have some oddball issues but those are also extremely old. That’s apples and oranges compared with Meraki.

They may be old and what not, but I also barely use them (compared to enterprise environment) and have barely any monitoring. And yet, I discovered quite a few issues that would be quite painful in enterprise environment. That's why I personally wouldn't recommend them for anybody who needs their Wi-Fi up and performing reliably in the enterprise settung.

You’re basing that on very old hardware. That’s like me saying I don’t recommend anyone to ever use Windows because ME edition sucked. No one in Enterprise today would deploy that version.

No, I also mentioned ac lite ap, which is new and still has an issue with band steering. So from my perspective, trend continues

Ubiquiti WiFi is way better than Meraki, at least in my experience.

I had an MR-18 at home. (Got it from a webinar 3 years ago.). I always had problematic WiFi coverage in my very small house. (Had to even setup a second AP to get coverage at the front.) I just replaced it with a Ubiquiti and now I have amazing coverage all over the house.

I just replaced it with a Ubiquiti and now I have amazing coverage all over the house.

If you don't mind me asking - how did you determine that? Did you just look at the signal strength, or did you actually do some other measurements?

Unifi comes by default with max power settings, which are usually way more powerful that the clients. It's totally fine if you have a single AP, but once you have multiple - it actually creates more issues, as clients don't roam away from it when they should (they think they still get good signal from it, however the signal from them is so weak that AP can barely "hear" it, which creates bunch of issues).

Signal strength and general usability.

Original Poster1 point · 9 months ago

Yeah. Been using it for years. It’s kind of buggy.

What bugs have you run into? We've been using it basically since day one and the last two years the equipment has been solid.

Original Poster4 points · 9 months ago

The UAP AC Pros have been stables, but the higher end products I’ve used will just stop working. I got their first 802.11ac access point and it never worked right. I got it replaced under warranty once. The UAP AC HD will just become unadopted after a while. I have to forget it and reset it to get it adopted again.

I would report that bug. I have several UAP-AC-HD and one UAP-AC-SHD that have been flawless. We are using controller version 5.6.18 and UAP firmware 3.9.1. Everything in the 5.x controller series and 3.x firmware has been amazing for us.

If you aren't running UniFi controller on a CloudKey unit or on Linux, I would try one of those. I've seen some very weird issues on Windows and macOS with the controller that seems to stem back to Java.

Original Poster-3 points · 9 months ago

Thanks. I’ll try switching to Linux. I’ve been running it on my MacBook.

You're running a Java based server application on a Mac laptop that doesn't have an onboard ethernet jack?

-7 points · 9 months ago(1 child)

Yes, it probably does 99.9% of the time, like most consumer hardware.

My comment was more to the idea of any part of that chain being a production or even test lab setup. You'd be crazy to build infrastructure with anything running on a Mac, especially running Java. Add in laptop and USB, and you're really off the reservation. Keep in mind this is /r/networking. Not /r/homenetworking or /r/homelab

If you ever close the lid on your macbook or shut it down, that can cause issues with the controller. The APs send a heartbeat pretty frequently to the controller. If that heartbeat is missed for a long enough period of time, such as when you turn off the computer the controller is on, then the controller thinks the AP is missing on the network. In some instances I've seen that cause the AP to require adoption in order for it to work again.

While installing UniFi controller on a laptop or on a computer that is not turned on all the time is definitely possible, it's not recommended. It's highly recommended to install on something that will be online all the time. This is actually one of the reasons Ubiquiti released the CloudKey device. It's about $70 at various retailers, runs Debian Linux at it's heart and has UniFi controller already installed and ready to go.


Comment deleted9 months ago
4 points · 9 months ago

you mean just like my Cisco WLC? Last time I updated code I had to push image to 500+ APs and have them reboot to new version before they could work with controller again.

Do you have automatic AP firmware updates enabled in the site settings? I’ve never had a controller update reboot APs unless I had automatic update enabled.

Comment deleted9 months ago
Comment deleted9 months ago

My thought exactly. We always upgrade in a maintenance window anyway, never had a complaint from the end users.

I pass butter
2 points · 9 months ago

They explicitly state the outage. Not a bug.

1 point · 9 months ago

Buggy?!? Nowadays all the shit we don't know is ... "buggy"

Having used both for years, they simply do not over lap; they each have their niche. Either the client has enterprise expectations and budget, or they don't. People try to make the same claims about Synology in the enterprise and it's madness for the exact same reasons: support.

No customer is seriously cross-shopping Meraki or Unifi.

I've had better luck than you.

2x AP's 1x Switch 1x Security Appliance.

1 point · 9 months ago

I got my switch but I feel guilty because I've been too busy at work to put it into testing.

The way I understand it is the free gear is meant for your own personal use, so I don't think there should be any guilt at all.

That sucks. I did 3 demos a while ago and got all 3 products without having g to call in. This was probably about a year ago.

We use meraki and support customers who also use it and it tends to work pretty well for its somewhat niche use case.

Are you in the midwest? I think the rep for the midwest might have gotten canned or something. I did a sales webinar and i tried calling for a week to confirm and leave a message and he never got back to me. Finally the rep for the west cost emailed me to confirm address, they sent the firewall with licensing and i haven’t heard from sales again. I have talked to support a few times and that has been A+.

Same happened to me, several times.

2 points · 9 months ago

I see a lot of people bashing the Meraki products but they are bashing from their view relative to what they support. I work for an enterprise deploying high end cisco products and agree that Meraki is not the right choice in the enterprise. BUT, I also have a side business and have a few small clients that I deployed Meraki Firewall, Switches, AP's and Phones at. These small 10-20 user clients don't have IT departments and it is amazing how easy it is for me to log in and view status or make changes without ever having to be there. Plus I get to bill time without leaving my house. If you haven't tried it in small client environments then it is definitely worth the try.

curious to know why you feel Meraki is not the right choice for the enterprise?

1 point · 6 months ago

Although the AP's will work fine at the Enterprise level, I would rather see higher end switches with faster capabilities in the enterprise as well as higher end firewalls. Also the phone products are great for a small deployment but they are limited to what they can do versus a full scale CUCM deployment.

2 points · 9 months ago

You dodged a bullet, that stuff is crap. Seems like it's a great device until you start drilling into features. It has just enough to satisfy 90% of admins out there, but not enough to really be useful in most enterprise nets. That and the fact that they still didn't support anything but IPv6 pass through in 2016 was enough for me. But hey, as a side gig I made quite a bit installing them and the replacing them a year later!

Saying it's "crap" just because it doesn't fit a niche you need isn't fair. It's pretty decent at what it does...

0 points · 9 months ago

I agree it's pretty decent at getting me paid - paid for fixing them, then paid for replacing them. Hell I have one that gets me like $200 a month at a client site right now. I'll be bummed when the IT guy there finally admits admits his mistake and replaces it.

The people deploying Meraki gear are making 10-20x that on successful installations while you're making scratch on failed ones. Obviously this deployment wasn't right. The niche is small, but profitable.

edit: I tried to edit this to not sound snarky but I don't know how. I'm not trying to put you down or in any way demean you. Just trying to provide some perspective of what you can do with that Meraki kit in the right scenario.

-1 points · 9 months ago

Right, which explains the nosebleed prices. I'm not trying to be snarky either, but crap gear is crap gear. Those people can make all they want selling overpriced soho routers, I'm stoked when their customers call because I already know what's wrong.

I signed up for the firewall one and got an AP instead. Asked the guy about it, he said he'd send a firewall, then never heard back.

Oh well. We already have some of their equipment, but we're phasing it out. No skin off my back.

Just buy Ruckus, be happy and never look back.

If you need switches, buy HP.

The best part is the free Access Point is only good for so long. After awhile you need to purchase a license to keep using the product, lol.

Original Poster-1 points · 9 months ago

60 GHz WiFi will be common by then so that part is fine.

Network Engineer/R&S/WiFi/F5/Linux
-1 points · 9 months ago

So because you aren't getting free stuff you've written off the company? Sounds reasonable enough...

Original Poster29 points · 9 months ago

No, because they lied and treated me poorly.

This is actually the hardest part about dealing with them. It's a horrible customer experience up front dealing with their overworker, high-turnover, inexperienced front-line sales, but the gear is pretty sweet.

If you're interested, feel free to PM me and I'll put you in touch with someone who can get you the gear.

1 point · 9 months ago

I'm really sorry about your experience. I assure you most of them are not like this. You can also fill out a form to do a evaluation. I think if you give the gear a try you will love it; and you can also bring up your grievances with the new sales guy.

The same thing happened to me. Our company bought some NFRS gear. It is easy to install and setup but troubleshooting can be painful.

Our network has experienced weird bugs, such as the search engine filtering option to cause outlook to stop syncing with gmail.

Also in the last year their support has really gone downhill.

Make your own flair
1 point · 9 months ago

So 1 shit rep = bad product?

Contact his RM. Contact your SE.

Make it known that you wanted the product but he fucked it up and now you’re entertaining other vendors. Use it to get a better discount.

Comment deleted9 months ago
Original Poster4 points · 9 months ago

But there are a ton of people with the exact same story including many people who responded to this post.

-4 points · 9 months ago

Hey - so, that FREE hardware requires a license which isn't free.

5 points · 9 months ago

They typically bundle a licenses good for a few years.

-6 points · 9 months ago(5 children)

Even if you didn't get the email you were supposed to, try claiming by Order # instead of serial. That should automagically bring the license and serial at the same time.

The licenses are sent via email. You should have received 3 year licenses for both.

-5 points · 9 months ago(0 children)
4 points · 9 months ago

That's unfortunate. My switch and AP I got last week both have a multi-year license.

Yes, they include 3 years free.

Just an FYI - there are conditions to get the free gear and some disqualifies. See here:

Original Poster1 point · 7 months ago

What's your point? Are you calling me a fool?

No sir, didnt intend to insult. Just want people to know that there are terms involved, lots of people don't know.

CompTIA Net+
-4 points · 9 months ago

It stinks that they treated you poorly. But I can guarantee the team getting the free stuff out is not the same as their tac team. (Beggars can't be choosers), go buy something.

-5 points · 9 months ago(0 children)

You dodged a bullet. Count it as a blessing.

-14 points · 9 months ago(0 children)

They promised to send OP a product to demo for 3 years, but never did and stopped responding. How is that a sense of entitlement?

Sense of entitlement is expecting the company to send free hardware just because you asked for it. Meraki is actively advertising that if you sit through a webinar they will send you free equipment. If they don't send you the gear after you hold up your end of the agreement, that's false advertising.

-10 points · 9 months ago(0 children)
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