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DNC Chair Tom Perez on Russian Intel Indictment: 'This is an Act of War' | Velshi & Ruhle | MSNBC

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338 points · 2 days ago

Technically it is. Members of a foreign army initiated and conducted sabotage of the US on American soil.

128 points · 1 day ago

Alright, stay with me on this...

If this was an act of war, which initial assaults the US Congress wasn’t aware of until months after the strikes, could Congress declare a war and determine the start of that war is retroactive to when the first strikes occurred?

I’ve been reading some Sun Tzu lately so let me share one quote that keeps rolling around in my mind.: “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

Upvote across the board. The attack on America has been quiet. Calculated. Donors waited until they they could strike. Terrible and Weak candidate. Also a female. Populist cult followers. Secret donations ok. Russian enemy state supporting a Candidate. the supporters of trump are losing jobs and benefits at a higher rate than intelligent people. Idk. Seriously. Trump fans ... what has he done for you lately (or ever)

Put babies on trial and separate minors for parents into a system valued over a billion dollars overnight?

They like that

Georgia
5 points · 1 day ago

To echo the sentiments of my fellow posters, Trump's done a lot of awful shit. The thing is, though, that his supporters don't think what he's done is bad - they like the fact that families are getting torn apart and he's damaging our international reputation.

We need to stop assuming that Trump supporters will wake up one day and realize how bad Trump is. They know how bad he is, and they like it.

Trump fans ... what has he done for you lately (or ever)

librul tears

IANACL but... that’s a double edge sword.

If Congress declares war on Russia, it would:

  1. officially make any conspiracy with Russian efforts an act of treason (though probably wouldn’t include acts committed before he declaration was made)

  2. automatically trigger and grant extended authority and power to the executive branch under the Constitution.

The latter is a great way to help this president erode democracy faster. I don’t think we want that right now.

13 points · 1 day ago

War is not a prerequisite for determining treason. I keep seeing this on Reddit lately, and it's verifiably false. Please note the usage of or in U.S. Code, Title 18, Chapter 115:

§2381. Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

It comes down to the definition of "enemies." Is Russia considered an enemy?

They were removed from the G-8 because they waged war against a neighboring nation, and the entire NATO alliance exists to protect Europe from Russian intrusion, so it is safe to say that Russia is viewed as an enemy nation.

That means anyone who gave them "aid and comfort" is guilty of treason. It should certainly give Russia comfort that a hard-liner like Hillary is not president and an easily manipulated and friendly president like Trump is president.

If Mueller can connect all the dots, and show that Trump was aware of the Russian manipulation before, during, and after the election, and if he offered them some quid pro quo concessions in exchange, then the Constitutional definition has been satisfied, and he has unequivally committed treason, as has anyone else who knew about it.

I sure hope Mueller can connect those dots. I'd love to see Trump out of office, but I'd especially love to see him go out with the disgrace of being the biggest American traitor since Benedict Arnold.

2 points · 1 day ago · edited 1 day ago

Thank you for expanding on that; I've already been rebutted with this bullshit But Russia's not an enemy!

I'm really hoping, although I feel it's a super-long shot, that if we can force Trump out as the traitor he is, then maybe we can lay the legal groundwork to remove all of his toxic appointments, reverse his abominable executive orders, and impeach Pence. We certainly have the logical groundwork if we can get that far. Frankly, we should hold a special presidential election.

We probably need some kind of TRUMP Act to reverse this madness: a Treason Requires Undoing Malicious Policies Act.

Please note the usage of or

Please note that while there is no definition for enemy under Title 18, every other place that the word "enemy" is defined under U.S. Code it has meant a group or individual who is engaged in hostilities against the U.S. And that hostilities is defined as any conflict subject to the laws of war Though, this doesn't require a formal declaration of war as some people have claimed, just that the group that is considered an enemy engages in an act of war.

1 point · 1 day ago · edited 1 day ago

I would love to see some citations from a reputable legal scholar to back up your definitions.

And please note that cyberwarfare and election interference are arguably acts of war. Furthermore, we are already involved in several proxy wars against Russia: e.g., in Syria, Darfur, and Yemen.

like cyberwarfare or interfering in elections.

The U.S. already considers cyberwarfare as a potential act of war. There is unfortunately no formal definition of what exactly crosses the line, but if it's shown that votes were changed or voter information changed, that would definitely count. However, hacking and disinformation campaigns would unfortunately not rise to that standard, the cyberwarfare needs to have an effect similar to physical warfare (i.e. destruction of physical property).

Colorado
6 points · 1 day ago

Russia attacked us in an act of war. So the actions of the people who helped them is already treason, whether our congress claims it’s war or not. For the record, McCain called it an act of war back in 2016.

I'm pretty sure hanging the Russian wrecking ball, and dismantling his government would be step 1.

This is what Russia excels at.

Their country is pretty poor and dependent on the west. Yes they have nukes, but anyone sensible with nukes knows they can never be used. Or at least only used once.

They also know that the west can’t start a shooting war with a nuclear power. At least not without really good reason.

So instead they are doing all of these things that are well under the threshold that would provoke a direct military response.

They are also perfectly ok with trying a bunch of stuff, some of which even works against other stuff they’re doing.

When you are primarily working to create chaos you have a lot more options than the people protecting the status quo.

We need to allocate military budget to training children in STEM, giving tech scholarships to people who are ideal candidates for the CIA, FBI, and armed forces, and supporting white hat and black hat hackers who can help the US in a different form of warfare. This is now a communications and cyber war.

Pennsylvania
2 points · 1 day ago

We need to allocate military budget to training children in STEM

We have been trying to do this for decades, with at best-mixed results.

giving tech scholarships to people who are ideal candidates for the CIA, FBI, and armed forces

First of all the ideal candidates in tech, science, engineering or mathematics will almost certainly be able to get a scholarship or free ride at any school based on their grades and background. Secondly, why would someone like that want to take a low paying government job taking orders from someone when they the exact type of people who could crush it on Wallstreet and retire by 30...or roll the dice and found a startup.

Yeah, that would help a lot. The problem is that the military is very constrained relative to the non-state actors Russia uses as proxies.

Russia is essentially a crime syndicate at this point. Most of what we think of as Russian government activities are actually Russian-sponsored activities.

They fund 3rd parties to get things done and they don’t care at all how they do them.

The US government is constrained by laws (as they should be) so it’s hard to maintain an effective defence, or mount any kind of counter-offensive.

Adding to that, there is no governing international law for cyber warfare. And even if there were, would it apply to a private third party if you suspected, but couldn’t prove Russian government involvement?

Russia is exploiting a lot of weaknesses of western liberal democracy. It’s not clear how to patch them, but clearly we need to quickly move to find international solutions to these problems, or we risk a global slide into autocracy.

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More of a act of war that starts a cold war. We should be doing our own counter sabotage attacks.

The cold war never really ended. They've been at it since the 70's when they got rid of the secret ballot in congress and as a result could buy as many votes as they want..

Colorado
5 points · 1 day ago

McCain called the attacks “an act of war” before Donald was even sworn in. We’ve known this. What we now know is the direct working together of the GOP and trump campaign folks including a congressional candidate with the Russians to perpetrate the attack. THAT is treason. It’s time for everybody, Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, Perez, Bernie..everybody to start using the word treason.

Yes, once again we have the Dems at their spineless weasley best. Time to get in the fight. Republicans never hesitate to use strong words to describe the Democrats, saying that they hate America and want to destroy it. It's time for Democrats to use stronger words than collusion. Call them out for their treason, start wondering aloud if the actions of the Trump administration meet the definition of treason. Make the Sunday news programs ask their Republican guests if they think Trump's activities meet the criteria for treason. It's time to educate America what it really means and start them debating this.

Then it won't be about IF Trump is guilty, but what exactly is he guilty of? Then when treason charges come down, everybody will know what's going on.

[deleted]
9 points · 1 day ago(0 children)
-33 points · 2 days ago(35 children)
43 points · 2 days ago · edited 2 days ago

I had to look it up.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331

(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of—

(A) declared war;

(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or

(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin; and

So I guess it depends on whether use of cyber weapons constitutes "armed conflict".

EDIT: There's also this on that same page:

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended—

(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

So according to 5B (i, ii, and iii) it neatly fits the definition for domestic terrorism.

California
15 points · 2 days ago

Gates said it was a form of hybrid warfare.

Foreign
40 points · 2 days ago

Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein referred to Russia's cyber-attacks as information warfare.[1]


  1. Politico - Mueller shifts focus back to Russian 'information warfare'

This is the shortest PoppinKREAM post I've ever seen.

But still impeccably cited, as always! 😃

Colorado
2 points · 1 day ago

John McCain called it literally “an act of war”.

Sen. John McCain said Friday that Russia's alleged meddling in the 2016 presidential election amounted to an "act of war."

The Arizona Republican, who is chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, also has scheduled a hearing for next week on foreign cyberthreats to the US, which will also focus on Russian cyberhacking, a committee aide told CNN earlier Friday.

McCain, who is one of Washington's most prominent foreign policy hardliners, has criticized the recent sanctions and expulsions announced by the Obama administration this week as insufficient and belated. He made his latest comments in Ukraine, a nation threatened by a resurgent Russia, after meeting with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.

"When you attack a country, it's an act of war," McCain said of the recent hackings on Ukrainian TV, according to a transcript compiled by Reuters. "And so we have to make sure that there is a price to pay so that we can perhaps persuade Russians to stop this kind of attacks on our very fundamentals of democracy."

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/politics/mccain-cyber-hearing/index.html

Well, there's people dead, so the armed bit is covered.

20 points · 2 days ago

Some day in the distant future, once everyone connected to it is long dead, we are going to find out that our election was hacked, vote totals were changed, and the Republican Party knew about it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened, and that it'll all get sealed for the maximum 70 years.

Colorado
2 points · 1 day ago

Monday’s not that far off, man. Hang in there.

-2 points · 1 day ago

Seth Rich?

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be that way too.

Colorado
1 point · 1 day ago

Heather Heyer.

So I guess it depends on whether use of cyber weapons constitutes "armed conflict".

Which is actually an interesting point to bring up, because the US doesn't really have a clear definition. Last time I checked it had to result in death or significant damage, IIRC.

Texas
7 points · 2 days ago

Could we call the Trump administration “significant damage”?

As much as I would like that, it wouldn't hold up.

I'm just hoping we're able to find a smoking gun from Trump.

As a general rule, if nothing went "bang" or "boom" and no one was stabbed, then it was not an armed conflict.

This is cyber war, hackers are special forces operating behind enemy lines firewalls

How does it fit 5B?

A propaganda campaign is not coercion, its trickery/deceit. Coercion means using threats/intimidation. It doesn't seem to fit any of i,ii, or iii

Interesting distinction – it's true that the hacks themselves may not satisfy the definition of coercion, but the Russians have been using force all along the way with nerve agents and people "falling" off high buildings.

One thing is clear though: I'm glad I'm not a lawyer.

They also hacked the Republicans...

And it is interesting they only disclosed the damaging* DNC emails. Perhaps the RNC information was more useful for leverage/blackmail?

Which, if used as leverage, is definitely coercion.

That is a classic definition of war. If you want to stick to 18 U.S. Code 2331 Definitions it would be closer to international terrorism. But those definitons are for armed conflict, and the Pentagon has wanted them changed for a long time to include cyberwar.

Suppose the Nazis had sent soliders to the US to bomb trains of materials bound for the Brits before the start of WWII. Would we have seen that as an act of war? Most certainly. Here you have Russian soliders trying to subvert the US democratic process inside the borders of the US.

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7 points · 2 days ago

Well we dont actually declare war anymore so its definition is moot.

How’s the weather in Moscow?

-2 points · 2 days ago

Did you really just accuse this guy of being a Russian operative because he posted the legal definition of war?

Colorado
2 points · 1 day ago

Sen. John McCain said Friday that Russia's alleged meddling in the 2016 presidential election amounted to an "act of war."

The Arizona Republican, who is chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, also has scheduled a hearing for next week on foreign cyberthreats to the US, which will also focus on Russian cyberhacking, a committee aide told CNN earlier Friday.

McCain, who is one of Washington's most prominent foreign policy hardliners, has criticized the recent sanctions and expulsions announced by the Obama administration this week as insufficient and belated. He made his latest comments in Ukraine, a nation threatened by a resurgent Russia, after meeting with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.

"When you attack a country, it's an act of war," McCain said of the recent hackings on Ukrainian TV, according to a transcript compiled by Reuters. "And so we have to make sure that there is a price to pay so that we can perhaps persuade Russians to stop this kind of attacks on our very fundamentals of democracy."

McCain has invited James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, Admiral Mike Rogers, Director of the National Security Agency, and Marcel Lettre, the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, to next week's hearing, according to the aide.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/30/politics/mccain-cyber-hearing/index.html

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Eh. Technicalites aren't going to shield the Russian government from bomb blasts when we destroy them.

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More of this kind of thing. I need to know the Democrats get how serious this is, and stop with the decorum bit.

Georgia
2 points · 1 day ago

Did you not watch Strzok's hearing the other day? The Democrats were - to the last - fucking pissed off about their Republican colleagues' behavior. They repeatedly said the hearings were a waste of time, were damaging to a vital member of the intelligence community in the form of the FBI. They harshly criticized Gowdy and Goodlatte for their refusal to call any Congressional investigations into ICE's appalling behavior at the boarder, tearing families apart. Or the camps children have been sent to. And multiple Democrats stated - out loud and on the record and broadcast live - that Donald Trump was not fit to be president, and that Russia had definitively interfered with the 2016 presidential election.

It was everything /r/politcs wants them to say, and more. It was fucking glorious.

Sure, that's twice. Let's keep it up.

Something like #DefendAmerica needs to trend.

I am not going to vote for anyone democrat or republican, who does not show a willingness and ability to protect us from Russia.

81 points · 2 days ago

We need to start holding people responsible for this, the corruption will continue to get worse and worse if they keep getting away with it.

enough of "Russia isn't an issue that resonates for the midterms." fucking make it one.

If only the rest of us could stop being corrupt as well and take responsibility for the fact that we allowed this to happen, then we'd truly be patriots.

Sadly thats not going to happen, loving Trump and being a traitor to your own country goes so well together.

Goddamn you speak so much truth.

Colorado
1 point · 1 day ago

That’s like saying Hawaiians allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. This was called an act of war by a guy who knows war. We were attacked. The fact that some idiots support the attacker can’t be how we decide our next move. We have to try them for treason and hold new elections.

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"What am I gonna do?"

- Trump

Suck his dick maybe.

It is an act of war, but due to the presence of Russian nukes, we can't invade, we can only sanction. If it was any 3rd world country that did this, we would be gearing up for an invasion

If it was any 3rd world country that did this, we would be gearing up for an invasion of Iran

FTFY

upvoted through the tears

If it was any other 3rd world country that did this,

FTFY. Russia is definitely a third world country.

Technically, they and their former allies were the 2nd world

...that makes no sense at all

We can respond in a proportionate way using our own cyber weapons, particularly information warfare. After all, we unleashed them on the world in the first place, most notably stuxnet.

We should definitely unleash a stuxnet-like cyber weapon against the Kremlin at a minimum.

We actually did counterattack before the election- but it must be considered a bat sec issue, because Boone reports it. I bet that that is also where we got a lot of info that Mueller is still combing through. We turned on video and everything.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36933239

Putin has them all by the balls, it wouldn't work

Colorado
1 point · 1 day ago

Then we grab his hands holding their balls and squeeze harder.

How they have the Senate and the house :(

4 points · 1 day ago

Or we could respond disproportionately and start bombing Russian targets. American Congressmen can declare war on Russia for any reason they like. They can impeach the President when they please.

In reality the only real way to stop Putin is by force. His weapon that needs to be targeted isn’t nuclear solos. It is concrete buildings housing Russian propagandists and hackers.

0 points · 1 day ago

What a silly thing to say. Do you honestly think that's the best way to solve this? I'm no fan of him, but given the choice of four years of President Trump vs. war with Russia, I'm choosing Trump hands down.

Even if we exclude the nukes from the equation, an all out war with Russia would impact us for generations. I don't know what the solution is, but I can guarantee that bombs aren't the answer.

California
0 points · 1 day ago

Why do you want to end the world?

-1 points · 1 day ago

Why do you want to end Democracy and replace it with a tyranny of plutocrats?

Oh, I know the answer. Because Putin, Trump, or Murdoch has told you to think so.

California
1 point · 1 day ago

I am vehemently anti trump, but I would rather have a compromised democracy than a nuclear winter.

-4 points · 1 day ago

I don’t believe you are American as Americans don’t think that way.

If Putin loves his money so much that he chooses to kick off WWIII and destroy the world, that is his choice alone. He has committed an act of war and he must be attacked in return.

For America to face a threat and then to roll over and to give up on Democracy itself has never happened even once. The trinity of Democracy, freedom, and the Constitution is the one single concept which has united Americans to fight passionately for generations.

Dude, stop. You're only hurting the cause...

Your making a false dichotomy of either tacit acceptance or full on military invasion.

Both are unacceptable. Good thing there are myriad other options.

California
0 points · 1 day ago

Clearly your life doesn't matter to you, you need help. It's not anti-American to value one's life, the spirit of America is every man for himself, the spirit of capitalism is the idea that individuals should control their own destiny. Sorry for valuing the lives of over 7 billion people over petty politics.

Literally the whole point of the Cold War was to prevent the entire world from ending, and nothing's more American than 50s-60s nuclear outcry.

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-3 points · 2 days ago

We had these weapons in place and ready to go. Obama for some reason left the decision to use them to the Russian puppet.

10 points · 2 days ago

Yeah his hands were pretty much tied due to Mitch McConnell aka the most traitortastic turtle in the world. He did go after their compounds which for some mysterious reason Trump tried to give them back.

Couldn’t Obama just have acted on his own and instructed the CIA to fuck up the Russian military hackers? Don’t we have that ability? He didn’t need McTurtle’s permission.

Well there is the small matter of Russia being a nuclear armed power so any covert aggressive action could have resulted in global thermonuclear war. You know just that.

For I am become death, the destroyer of worlds..

2 points · 1 day ago

Exactly I'm glad you understand at least. Also interesting user name.

The Russians need to back down now, otherwise they risk starting a chain of events, if they haven't already, that they will lose control over. At this point I fear Putin wants to drive this thing to the bitter end, the final conclusion, he will not let his hard work to restore the Russian empire go to waste.

This. Putin and his gang are nothing but a maffia, who are after power and power alone at any cost. If they think they can get world dominance by starting a thermonuclear war, I have no doubt they'll try.

his hands weren't tied. he was intimidated by Mitch and decided it wasn't worth pursuing. It was a bad calculation thinking Hillary would win.

He did act. It just isn’t reported on here- I assume a national security issue.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36933239

Didn't he say we might not see the American response? I don't think we can make statements about what measures he took or didn't take.

Here’s one article on it. There seems to be a news black out on it in the US.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36933239

Obama used some. It didn’t get reported here- I assume it fell under National Security- but right after we got confirmed evidence that Russia hacked the Dems, we hit the Russia’s in July.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36933239

Ah, whatabout Obama. Classic.

4 points · 2 days ago

Relax. I'm not trying to pull a whataboutism. I do think that Obama could have been a little bolder on this issue during his last days in office. It was a tough call. Obviously that doesn't excuse the absolute shitshow that we've seen since.

He did act- there just seems to be some news black out on it here. I assume National Security. I remembered hearing initial reports, than nothing. The only thing I’ve found is this BBC article.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36933239

There is a vast gulf of possible sticks to hit them with between impotent economic sanctions and full out nuclear warfare.

Economic sanctions are far from impotent. Targeted sanctions against Russian oligarchs have been extremely effective due to the kleptocratic nature of Russian politics as of now, and getting rid of those sanctions was much of the reason Russia wanted Trump in the first place. What we need to do is enforce and reinforce our sanctions against these oligarchs, as the best way to throw a wrench in a hostile kleptocracy you can't feasibly attack militarily is to make it unprofitable for those on top.

1 point · 1 day ago

The sanctions have actually been pretty effective, and would be even more so if the new expanded ones were actually being enforced.

Texas
2 points · 1 day ago

The invasion of Crimea should have been the start of WWIII but Russia has the west under it’s thumb. Tampering with the election was big, Crimea was big, Syria is big, but it’s going to take something akin to an open call to arms by the Russians for NATO to do anything about it other than sanctions.

We can convict the any traitors of treason.

Sure, but there's more going on here than military retaliation. Act of war makes the conspiracy treason and impossible to pardon.

I vote to invade.

Michigan
1 point · 1 day ago

Really wish we'd sanction them completely.

We could fight back online and start the first all out cyberwar. Tit for tat game theory

According to the Constitution we can also imprison everyone who aided the foreign enemy.

1 point · 1 day ago

Cut their internet access,

Russia should be isolated and sanctioned back to the stone age. Fucking greasy bastards.

Are people really this stupid and bloodthirsty?

Are you volunteering to offer up yourself and your children to sit at the front of the landing craft as you try to launch an invasion of Russia?

Your post is completely false. We would never (and have never) launched a full scale war (i.e. invasion) in response to an action that did not cause heavy loss of life. What we have done, and should do, is respond in kind. Russia uses cyber war on us, we can do the same to them. But no sane person is going to call for the death of millions of Americans in a land invasion over some political propaganda.

The only time when I feel the war is necessary is when my country's sovereignty and the freedom it provides is under direct attack by a hostile foreign nation, which is literally this. In this case there has not be a significant loss of life, correct, but the ramifications of Trump and the chaos Russia is creating are imo probably worse than a massive terrorist attack like 9/11. There must be repercussions.

Ohio
2 points · 1 day ago · edited 1 day ago

Let me ask you a simple question that should clarify it immediately. Suppose you are forced to shed one of the following things - which do you choose? Which is worth more to you than the other? By answering this question, you may find that people are not 'stupid and bloodthirsty'; they merely chose what they would rather lose:

Your freedom or your blood.

That said, people are wanting us to declare war not so we can bomb Russia or invade them - but so that we can treat them as a hostile state that is presently at war with us, and therefore curtail arguments in the Senate and elsewhere that 'we need to be friends with the state that's attacking us'. Also, so that it is both clear and necessary that we immediately begin investing in defending our electoral security, which we have failed to do so for two years now.

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It's all part of the game we play, don't worry, hot war is unlikely, but the boldness of Russia in their attacks is a slippery slope. If there is war, don't worry, no one on either side will live long enough to fight in the trenches.

If it was any 3rd world country

we'd be doing the same to their elections on a regular basis and expect no retaliation.

4 points · 2 days ago

Any election interference is bad. We shouldn't have done that in the past. However it's a special level of stupid for one nuclear power to try to interfere in another nuclear powers elections. On top of all of that they were sloppy as fuck. If your going to try and do something like this maybe don't have the person you are trying to help go on national T.V. and ask you to do it. Honestly if Putin had been smart he would have had his agents go to say the CIA say it was some rouge part of his security apparatus apologize, and then go on live television and denounce Trump for trying to do this stupid shit.

Lets see if it was a special level of stupid. So far (2 years?) it has been super effective with no quantifiable negative effects against the perpetrators.

3 points · 2 days ago

Yes becouse the attack is still happening. The Trump administration itself is part of the attack. We have so many options to deal with Russia once we regain control of our country. For example we are developing quantum computers that can demolish any encryption that the Russians might come up with. We can then air the oligarchs dirty laundry where everyone can see. Oh also we can just push for green energy world wide, becouse most of Russias money comes from fosil fuels. That's just a few options this disabled dad can think of. You can't imagine the sorts of shit our best and brightest can come up with.

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16 points · 2 days ago

Aaaand he’s right. This is cyberwarfare plain and simple. While Mango Mussolini is talking about building a Death Star, we’ve been getting our as kicked in a REAL war.

Mango Mussolini

Lmao. Hadn't heard that one yet. Will be my new go-to monniker for the Orange one.

America
14 points · 1 day ago

It is an act of war. SO it falls under Article V of NATO, correct? What if Article V was invoked, in secret, in the months between the election and Trump's inaugural by President Obama? Would this not explain how the intel agencies of our allies acted so quickly in assisting the investigation?

It's the political equivalent of Pearl Harbor or 9/11

New Jersey
37 points · 2 days ago

Worse. Pearl Harbor was an encroachment on our sovereignty. The election interference was a shot through the heart of our sovereignty.

“I asked the Japanese and they said they didn’t do it”. /s

10 points · 2 days ago

This has all felt like a slow motion 911, except it's happening all over the country and some morons are cheering.

But if you can't equate it to a definitive body count this comparison would be insensitive to use for the average voter.

But you're right, we have the potential to fall back a generation's worth of progress with the impact of these attacks and Trump's Presidency and the GOP's greed and lust for absolute power. 9/11 has had a similar effect on us, and Pearl Harbor much more obviously. Some of everything going on comes from actions taken due to 9/11, like the patriot act and the paranoia that came with it due to a lot of our privacy being stripped away, the wars, increased police issues due to increased police power and capabilities, the instability of the Middle East. Bin Laden was said to have designed the attack specifically to cause a ripple effect of problems for us, Putin's goal is basically the same.

Plenty of Puerto Rican's have died. . .

8 points · 2 days ago

I think more than on 911 if I'm not wrong.

You are not wrong.

West Virginia
11 points · 2 days ago

it's possibly worse. Pearl harbor was terrible, but this will change the course of the country for 100 years.

I mean, Pearl Harbor did that too....

This hyperbole is ridiculous. Unless you can blame Russia for putting every single Republican senator and congressperson in office, you cannot blame them for all of the ramifications of a Trump presidency unleashed by the failure of the system of checks and balances.

Trump would have been impeached within the first few weeks if we had a sane congress. He would not have been able to do any lasting damage. But most of those old fucks have been in office for decades.

Americans need to look in the mirror rather than pointing fingers. People are too stupid or too lazy to vote, to vote intelligently, and to pay attention to the ramifications of their actions. For half a century we've been gutting the education system, reducing literacy and critical thinking. It's no wonder so many people fell for Russian propaganda: American society has failed to educate two generations of children.

Trump is but a symptom of a broken system that's been in place since the 70s.

It can be both.

27 points · 2 days ago

How long until Roger Stone is charged with treason?

Not sure. It does seem like his twitter page is quieter than usual.

Hmm, we better check what Milo thinks about this then

Evergreen

10 points · 1 day ago

Yes it is. Which means any American that had a hand in it committed treason. Treason is punishable by death.

California
8 points · 2 days ago

Get the fucking Democrats on this page.

I know the GOP was traditionally the party that used fear of Russia for political reasons; but now there's a legit reason to fear them and the Dems need to realize that.

5 points · 1 day ago

This was absolutely an act of war. In this upcoming election, Americans need to elect politicians with the backbone and patriotism to bring the war back to Russian soil.

Ohio
12 points · 2 days ago

Establishing the hack and election meddling by Russia as an act of war is essential to characterizing Trump's and his campaign's coordinated efforts as treason. It's well beyond time that we begin describing it as such.

Attack by Russian Intelligence Officers.

If a weaker nation had perpetrated an ATTACK like this against us, they would've been fucked so hard by now.

Russia is not that strong, we just can’t waltz in there willy nilly because nukes (and puppet).

it fucking should be, but fox news buried it on page 3 so i doubt trump even cares.

2 points · 2 days ago

I hope Perez has his OPSEC in order.

2 points · 1 day ago

I was wondering when people would use the 'w' word. Now we can start using the 'T' word.

2 points · 1 day ago

For some reason, I thought this was an SNL skit when I saw the thumbnail.

Then it must be an act of war when the US interferes in the elections of other countries.

With the polarization happening today this will really matter if a Republican says it--who ISN'T retiring.

Russia's campaign of using bots to kill net neutrality, to sow distrust during elections, or during any major twitter campaign of Trump. He makes up a catchphrase, the Russian trolls try to drown out as much natural conversation as they can. It's terrible.

Trump and Russia have ruined the internet

And no matter, because GOP doesn't care, neither do the citizens who buy into the "witch Hunt" narrative. We are fucked

I seriously can't believe we have some people here advocating for FUCKING WORLD WAR 3

I hate our current situation as much as anyone but lets not pretend we don't do tons of the same shit all over the world. I think it was our influence on the Ukrainian split that pissed off Russia in the first place.

By declaring it an act of war, it leaves Trump and his mob open to charges of treason, as defined in the Constitution. That's why he's saying this.

True. Vladimir Putin committed and act of war against the USA and the best response we have is that the POTUS wants to suck his dick.

1 point · 1 day ago

So he knew that Russia indictments where coming and then he bashed our allies.. all while traveling to Europe to meet one on one with putin in a closed room with bo recordings..

Man I dont even have a word anymore for trump supporters. You idiots.

1 point · 1 day ago

Issues with Trump aside...... do the Democrats really want a shooting war with Russia?

Yes, it was.

Oh for fuck's sake. It's not a declaration of war. But it IS important and it should matter. Perez needs to work on his Hyperbole.

After almost two decades of war, I don’t really want to hear the word come out of any politicians face.

Well instead of us bringing war to foreign soil (of which we have a choice) another country has brought the war to us (of which we don’t have a choice). We are in a war, whether you want to hear it coming out of their mouths or not. The choice is now to either fight back or let them destroy our country.

This has been the status quo for a long time now. The technology has changed the game in unexpected ways but handwringing about war is fucking stupid. I hope there aren’t enough dipshits like you to start a real war.

Did I say we need to have boots on the ground?? I said we need to defend ourselves against Russia- and most of that will be via sanctions, remove his puppet that sits in the Oval Office and actually giving a fuck about them interfering in our elections.

0 points · 1 day ago

Right. Will you join the Army?

0 points · 1 day ago

Unless it is coming from your master Putin?

West Virginia
-4 points · 2 days ago

Yep, it is.... so.... what are we going to do about it Tom? Sternly worded statements?

6 points · 2 days ago

Genuinely curious what you’d like to see him do here?

Washington
3 points · 2 days ago

I'm with WE_CE, can you let us in on your brilliant idea as to what the DNC Chair (a private citizen working for a private non-profit) can do about the clear and present danger represented by Russia?

-19 points · 2 days ago(18 children)
13 points · 2 days ago

Ok I will shoot why was it irresponsible?

16 more replies

It would be more responsible to advocate a counterattack.

38 more replies

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