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Question

What am I doing wrong with CSing (noob question)?

I am working on raising my CS, since that seems to be a major mistake among new players. I tend to be at around 55-65 at 10 minutes when alone in top lane. I am still missing some last hits here and there, but more so the problem I keep running into, is when I clear a wave early game and get all my last hits, the lane pushes. I end up under the enemy turret, and have trouble last hitting. Especially with melee champions (Mundo is who I'm usually using).

What am I missing? How can I keep the wave slightly farther away from the turret, while still getting those kills? This gets especially more difficult if an enemy champ is also in the area.

Thanks in advance, and sorry if this question belongs elsewhere.

Edit: Thanks for the advice. It sounds like my biggest issue is attacking minions too often before last hitting. I need to work on just last hitting a lot more, and understanding what actions move waves in what ways.

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Wave manipulation and trading are important for CSing as well. So it's not a noob question it can actually be quite complex.

12 points · 16 days ago

This right here. Dont feel bad to struggle with CS.

I still did at high plat, having barely any thought put into wave-management. I just sorta autopiloted.

The truth is, having a good control over waves makes you both better off with csing AND makes you die less.

Wait as much as you can to last hit the minion. If you do it that way and there is another champion in your lane, 90% of the time the wave will end up towards your side of the lane. Search guides about "freezing"

If your constantly hitting the minions, while the enemy is only last hitting, the wave will push towards enemy turret.

If you wait to auto until the very last hit, and your enemy is the one constantly attacking the minions, the wave will push to your turret.

If both you AND the enemy are only using auto attacks for the last hit, the wave will stay where it is. This is called freezing the wave.

11 points · 16 days ago

The wave only freezes under those conditions if its in the middle. Freezing is a bit more complex then that but not much more. Check out solo renekton only's wave management guide for details.

I'm ashamed to admit I was only vaguely aware of the concept until now. Thanks for the explanation.

Fun facts about Minions while you’re working on that, all minions spawn at the same time and travel the same speed, so you can use your vision of your minions to tell where enemy minions are

Late game you can make a gigantic minion wave if you clear the enemy minions out and only kill the cannon/casters of the next group (castor minions are the ADC’s of a minion wave) then your minions will slowly accumulate into a wave large enough to take a tower, they then MUST send someone to clear it, this is called a 6-man wave and is SUPER strong because it lets you split push while all 5 members are still there for the fights, the enemy team must then choose between loosing the objective or risking a 4v5

You can practice wave manipulation in a practice tool game because you can time lapse to see the effects instantly

Hope this helps <33

8 points · 16 days ago

Holy shit thank you, no one has ever said what exactly you're supposed to do to get those kinds of waves

Glad I could help <3 feel free to hmu with any questions, i’m gold, but I do video editing for challenger players and information tubs off (I just lack the skill to back up my knowledge lol)

Oh yeah! Thank you so much for reminding me. I heard about this but whenever I see minions it's like asking me not to eat freshly baked cookies... I'll try to stay away from the cookies for strategic purposes.

Do you need to stay for another wave to kill off the casters again or can you set this up by just taking the casters for a single wave? I'm guessing that's a situational question :D

1 point · 16 days ago

Super situational question. I haven't watched these sense they came out but if I recall this is relevant https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzHaU28zdQ4GAMfVf_aASyiB4dheLsONx

It is possible to create these super waves by killing even a single enemy minion depending on where things are.

True! But the melee minions are tanky and will last longer, while the castor/cannon minions do a ton of damage (relatively speaking), so it’s more efficient and saves you more minions if you remove them and just leave them there to smack the minion meat shields with minimal casualties. Bit yes, any time your minion wave has more HP than the enemy wave it will do this over time unless a structure or champion destroys it!

Unranked
1 point · 16 days ago

Late game you can make a gigantic minion wave if you clear the enemy minions out and only kill the cannon/casters of the next group

Does this mean like on a fresh wave 6 v 6 if i take out the 3 enemy caster itll be a big wave or like in the first 6 v 6 i kill all the enemy minions then on a second wave kill the casters so its basically 12 v 3?(so ill have my wave from the first set of minions i killed and the new minions showing up)

In other words if the lane is reset do i just kill the 3 caster minions of just 1 wave or will it take 2 waves?

Yes, so imagine for a moment that the only top Lane towers on either side are the inhibitor Turrets! If the minions were shoved into your tower and no one was pushing with them, you would kill all the minions you could and then when the next waves start fresh just delete the caster minions and the Canon if there is one, and then just leave it. The minion still kill each other slow enough the reinforcements will show up for your minion soon and that advantage just continues to grow because now you’re going to have 12 minions fighting three, And then add six every time the way of stops because it’s waiting for itself so eventually you can get like 20 or 30 minions to go push a tower at once and it creates immense Map pressure and it’s crazy. I hope I’m explaining this right? If not I will make a video for it if that would help illustrate the point

6 points · 16 days ago

Sorry but that's not freezing. Freezing is keeping the bigger enemy wave so that it keeps killing your own minions to deny it from the enemy. What you describe is simply an even lane.

Freezing is a lot harder and requires you to pay attention to more stuff than only taking last hits.

0 points · 16 days ago

this is correct.

That's not what freezing the wave is really. Freezing the wave is making sure there's always an excess of enemy minions fighting. This means that the enemy minions will kill your wave and have some left over. You then tank these minions but leave them alive. When the next waves arrive the left over enemy minions will form another excess and the cycle will repeat.

That's what the real freezing the wave is.

you're correct

no; for the wave to be 'frozen,' it has to stay where it is without the enemy even last hitting it. this means that they have a minion advantage of +4 in that space just outside your tower range, or closer to +3 a nearer the middle, etc.

If your lane is pushing when you last hit you're hitting a little too early which is really the trick to CSing. Lots of people can get farm just autopushing or taking last hits whenever, or spend mana to do it, but being able to do it while controlling the wave is a different level. Work on hitting creeps just before they're going to die (this takes time and is a dynamic thing, it's like a rhythm based on what's going on in the lane) and beyond that, try to recall by pushing the wave before the cannon minion wave is coming (click in the base/lane where you see creeps coming, if it's a cannon try to clear your current wave) so you miss minimal CS from recalling. Mid and late game farming is about safety through vision and knowing how to either push the wave past river or set up a slow push.

Depending on your champion, you don't want to worry about the first few waves as much.

For example, Nasus is a notoriously bad early game champion, so he doesn't want to push. So being down a few cs in order to come out ontop is OK. Be patient and have a plan don't just look at your numbers.

As mundo, you can auto reset using your E. It can help you finish off minions that you are not sure. It can also kill off side by side minions. If wanna push the wave use W, unless necessary you always use Q and E to freeze

Learn to manage waves, and learn when to back. Others have talked a lot about not shoving the wave needlessly, but you should know what to do while the wave is crashing as well.

  • Roam to ward - deep enemy jgl wards are always good.

  • Roam to take jungle - kill scuttler or an enemy camp (or your own if it looks like your jungler will be preoccupied until it respawns anyway)

  • Back (this requires a bit of finesse, but if done while there's still a big wave under enemy tower and your own is coming up, this can let you buy, run back and arrive at tower just before the enemy wave crashes)

  • Roam to kill (see a play in mid or jgl? Let him farm under his tower while you secure a kill. He can't follow or he loses cs)

The way it was told to me is that you don't have to sit in lane and watch him farm. If your wave is crashing and there's not much to do, leave and do stuff elsewhere. Just be sure to not miss any or too much farm, and to come back before a huge wave dies, and you're gucci.

I suggest you Watch videos on how to freeze the lane. And how to control it there's good videos on youtube.

Unranked
2 points · 16 days ago

sometimes in lower elo other people are trying to fight so often it becomes difficult to hit 10cs/min that players achieve in higher level games. watch a high elo streamer like Bjergsen play the lane and you'll see how more controlled the lane is played rather than the mentality of random players that think "well.. my cooldowns are up so I'm going in yolo"

another thing that could be affecting you is back timings. you can miss a wave or mess up where you want the wave to sit based on when you back. you can find a lot of helpful videos in on the subject.

Diamond II
2 points · 16 days ago

Hit the enemy, he'll hit back and cause the wave to push. Don't wait for cs, force an error rather than seeing who's better at csing.

2 points · 16 days ago

well if he hit enemy the wave will still push toward enemy turret and if he dont get anything he will even have probably less cs

Diamond II
1 point · 16 days ago

If he doesn't retaliate its free damage, if you bounce wave you get it slow pushing to you. Literally the best thing you can do during an even wave is to push or fight.

Specially as Mundo you can cleaver those pesky ranged minions. As mentioned if you aa in the last moment to cs and there is enemy champion in lane you would not be pushing.

just match the push from your enemy, if he hits the creeps constantly you should either do it the same way if you dont want to get pushed under tower or harass him if he tries to push. maybe you should read some guides like http://goedhartvoordieren.nl/?page=r/leagueoflegends/comments/2jlx1w/a_series_in_creep_wave_management_the_uneven/ this.

As well as what everyone said already I would say a huge part in having a decent cs score is watching the map and rotating to lanes that are pushing on to you and catching that juicy farm. Recognizing these instances does take time just like getting good at last hitting though so there definitely isn't a magic trick. Just play a lot and it will come if you keep in mind a few simple things

What I do is push the first wave as fast as I can, then the enemy starts pushing.
When you freeze, even if you last hit as late as possible, you are going to push if the enemy isn't there. But if you don't do it this way it's even worse - you'll end up pushing with fewer minions and no "minion advantage". You might feel like what you're doing is wrong, but it isn't. I guess at least. That was my problem.

Unranked
3 points · 16 days ago

You’re the guys I freeze immediately on.

As a Nasus main, I do as well. I'm usually pretty excited when my opponent comes into lane pushing it my way. I'll freeze it and get my stacks without worry then.

hitting the enemy with targeted spells and AA draws creep agro. while creeps are trained on you, they can’t fight back your minions, so that will also push the wave.

All these replies are tldr.

TLDR - last hit ONLY don’t attack the creeps just cause. Make the wave sit near YOUR turret so THEY get shat on ganked

Unranked
1 point · 16 days ago

Aggro the minions slightly on the enemies sides of the map at level 1. It will slowly push to you.

I find that when I focus on last hitting at the last possible moment and only last hitting. My opponent ends up just shoving my Lane over and over until he takes the tower by the 10 minute Mark. What should I do? Start auto attacking to freeze the lane?

Here is a playlist of 6 short videos by solorenektononly

you will be better just for watching these

I would actually recommend watching them 2-3 times in a row, just to make sure it soaks in, since this seems to be your first introduction to lane control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQz3yU5tzJ0&list=PLzHaU28zdQ4GAMfVf_aASyiB4dheLsONx

I’m a mid laner, so it’s a bit different cs’ing than I do. But you don’t want to shove the wave unless it will deny or bounce. Anything else is only a benefit cuz you give away a free freeze and will practically dig your own grave if you can’t unfreeze it.

Something I used to get better was to simply make it a goal for certain CS. I’d make sure I get AT LEAST: 65 cs @ 10; 150 cs @ 20, etc. and I made that my goal. Cuz if you can match or beat your opponent in CS without dying you’ve won the lane (depending on champ), so it’s never a bad thing to out cs.

Also - unless you’re shoving you (like an assassin or you’re gonna back), try to use spells that will hit both champ and minions - you don’t generally wanna just spam spells onto minions. Use autos almost early (since most spells are so weak early on) and just hold spells for pressure or for the jungler that will demand your presence.

Best thing you can do is search YouTube for wave management tactics. Shoving the wave under the enemy's turret is a good thing to do in certain situations. I suggest solorenektononly especially since you are a top lane as he always talks about wave management and why he is shoving or setting up a freeze of the lane.

I cannot reccomend solorenektononly enough for this type of stuff he has the most informational wave control videos out there

Silver IV
1 point · 16 days ago

On Mundo you can also mostly use Q to pick up last hits at range. This works if you're being pushed in as well as if you're pushing them in.

Especially with the full refund on kill, it's totally viable to just sit back and Q farm.

If the wave gets shoved under your turret, you might need to help with some autos or auto-E comboes (E is an auto reset with a big damage bonus), but you can pretty easily farm till laning phase is over mostly with your Q.

It depends on the top lane and jungle match up but you don't wanna push early on Mundo.

only get the very last hit? just keep your eye on how the enemy top laner is csing too. You have to watch both the hp of your own creeps and theirs... watch how the creeps are focused as well to see what's going to die first.. a lot of times a creep might be lower hp than another, but the higher hp creep will end up dying first due to the amount of focus fire it is receiving suddenly. i see a lot of low elo players make the mistake of pushing the wave early game, when they want to be under their own turret if anything. It makes it easier for your jg to gank as well as make it harder or next to impossible for theirs to gank you. That's not the only problem you're creating by pushing the wave under their tower bro. You simply shouldn't be doing that early game especially when the enemy top laner can easily farm under turret(most can). Besides, I find it a lot easier to deny the enemy CS by harassing them while making sure to last hit my own creeps. Eventually you should find a healthy balance between the two...but I think for now, you should just focus on not pushing the wave. and by that I mean do not auto-attack any creeps unless it is a last hit. In Dota, we can last hit our own creeps, denying the enemy gold they'd might obtain from last hitting it themselves, and most importantly experience. I know back in the day, the experience people lost from denies was a LOT more. I'll never forget one time I took a solo top lane against 2 ranged heroes in Dota Allstars. One of them was ShadowFiend which was especially good at last hitting. Both of them ending up getting to lvl 6 before I even hit lvl 5 and I was SOLO.

play trynda

Comment deleted16 days ago(0 children)
Unranked
6 points · 16 days ago

you're 24/25 and still speaking like this, how embarassing

Some people get older but don't grow up. These people play league of legends.

OP may struggle with CS but you clearly struggle with life skills.

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