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level 1
[deleted]
1.8k points · 7 months ago

I'm hoping she looks into Nexium, the cult where Allison Mack is the main recruiter and they brand the female members. I was reading how people think it could be the next Scientology.

level 2
King of the HillOriginal Poster1.5k points · 7 months ago

The first episode will be about Jehovah Witnesses and another episode will be about Nxivm, a controversial self-empowerment group, according to the source.

level 3

I was hoping JW's were in the list

level 4

They are like weird Mormons and mormons are already weird.

I’m a Mormon and sometimes even I freak out about the people in there .

level 5
741 points · 7 months agoGilded1 · edited 7 months ago

So /u/Vegeta0589 comment below is getting buried because it reads like biased angst, which is common among exmormons. And /u/Ikanan_xiii comment reflects the more nuanced "yeah, it's not true, but it was nice and they are nice" perspective.

The problems with Mormons that create these conflicting views include:

  • doctrinal racism that isn't really in practice anymore (all white leaders sure, but members aren't racist), but racism still there in their doctrine (dark skin is a curse in the Book of Mormon for example)

  • anti-LGBT activism that puts them on the wrong side of civil rights and calls to attention the old racism

  • patriarchal leadership that sure looks a lot like sexism unless you justify it with "sorry, God says so, nothing we can do about it", again bringing all the [now more subtle] bigotry to the forefront

  • justifying these things with crazy beliefs that don't hold up, meaning these things are not justified

  • closed door interviews with children including sexual questions such as details about their masturbation habits, and if they did hook up with somebody, details about just exactly what and how they did / how far they went

  • cult-like Temple practices, the most glaring of which isn't the weird stuff they do inside, but that family members can't attend your wedding if they don't pay 10% of their income to the church to maintain a temple recommend that lets them in (IMO this is the Mormon version of JW shunning)

  • other belief tests required for a temple recommend, meaning you can't attend family weddings unless you are willing to say you believe that the latest batch of old leaders are "prophets, seers and revelators"

  • excommunicating people who talk about reasons they don't believe that the leaders are prophets, silencing doubters

  • church leaders refusing to counsel membership not to divorce an otherwise faithful and loving spouse because of a lack of belief, effectively encouraging divorce if someone wakes up to how fake it is, which is another thing forcing people to pretend belief

Mormon members usually really are great people, if naive in their belief. But all this stuff puts them on the wrong side of civil rights, authoritarian control, and gives them cult status. You don't have to bash on what good people Mormons can be to recognize the deeply rooted harms embedded in the religion. Most of what the Church does actually is good, but with these things hiding just below the surface, it's hard to say it's not culty.

Mormons will downvote me, but I was very careful not to say anything hateful or untrue. If you're going to downvote, have the courtesy to say why, tell me I'm wrong.

level 6
270 points · 7 months ago

As an ex-Mormon who was born and raised in Utah, I couldn't agree more.

I still live in Utah. It's a beautiful state filled with very nice people who will track you down and return things you've lost. Phones, wallets, you name it. I've forgotten to retrieve my cash-back from self checkouts five times, and I called the stores every time. 4 out of 5 times they have my cash waiting behind the service desk because people didn't take it. That's just one example of how kind these people are. I could go on and on about how neighborly and selfless they can be (shoveling your pathways, cooking for you when you're sick - even towards non-members).

But there are serious problems with how sheltered and indoctrinated the church makes them. They are very nice people, but it kind of breaks my heart to see so many people I love get caught up in a worldview that is so far from being down to earth.

level 7

That is insane, how do you forget to take your cash back so often? I need to follow you to the grocery store.

level 8
20 points · 7 months ago

Apparently he forgets it more often than I even get it.

level 7

I wonder how much religion plays a role in how nice they are. I'd be damn nice too if I were afraid of going to hell. I'm still nice, but I am because I believe in being nice and its long-term benefits to society and myself. The not-so-nice short-sighted minority of people who are making shit bad for everyone are those who might be the most influenced by religion.

Not American here, but I ought to visit Utah one day.

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level 6

That’s a pretty good rundown of why the LDS church feels cultish tbh. The temple stuff in particular has always been the carrot and the stick of the LDS faith, and I like how you broke that down. I’m a Mormon guy that got married civilly before I got sealed in the temple, and there was a bit of shade that people cast on me and my wife for not getting married in the temple first. An odd thing, too, as she had never been an active member of the church at all in her life, her family knew this, and yet somehow they still had the nerve to shame her for a decision WE made...

level 6
22 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

I'm a mormon, and I don't think what you said was hateful. I would like to address a few of the things you said. I hope you don't mind.

  • There are plenty of races in important leadership positions in the church. Not every leader in the mormon faith is white. There are members in the quorums of the seventy (directly next in authority after the apostles) that represent every race. It is just a matter of time before one of them becomes an apostle and potentially a prophet. I really think this one is more based on demographics. If you go to a mormon congregation that has a higher percentage of non-whites, non-whites will be in the leadership positions. It is all about availability of good people willing to accept a calling from God. Doesn't matter what color your skin is.

  • Anti-LGBT activism... yeah, that is true to an extent. We don't condone gay marriage. We believe marriage is ordained of God. We also believe God has said marriage should be between a man and a woman. But other than marriage, we believe that the LGBT community should have every other right. They should not be discriminated against for jobs, or anything else. This may seem antiquated this day in age, and you're right. God has had this opinion for a really long time. I don't know if it will change. Time will tell.

  • Patriarchal leadership... we have about a billion female leaders /s. But seriously a ton of our leaders are female. And they give talks every Sunday, teach lessons, and make leadership decisions. We have the world's largest all female organization called the Relief Society, which has been around for 175 years. It is true men and women have different leadership positions, but it isn't true to suggest that there aren't women leaders in the mormon church.

  • The 4th bullet point wasn't really specific, so no comment.

  • Yeah, the leaders in local congregations do meet with teenagers if they want to go into the temple. They are interviewed to see if they are keeping the commandments, which includes drinking, smoking, sexual sins, etc. Certain sins are worse than others. For example actual intercourse is worse than just touching private parts over clothing. Or trying a cigarette once is not as bad as shooting up heroin. The leader needs to know the details so they can make a proper judgement on the consequence. And if the teenager really wants to enter the temple, they are normally willing to stop doing the "bad" thing so that they can go to the temple. Other people may not think masturbation or pornography is bad. That's your right to believe that. But we believe it can be harmful, and lead to impure actions such as adultery or fornication. So we discourage it.

  • Yeah, you can't attend the temple unless you keep the basic commandments, including tithing, supporting the leadership, etc. To me it is kind of sad that you would let tithing get in your way of seeing your family member get married. But if the family member wants to get married in the temple, you have to be worthy to enter. My best friend couldn't go to my wedding. But she still supported me and flew in and went to the reception and all. If you aren't mormon, there are other ways to participate. I didn't get to see my older siblings get married because I wasn't old enough yet. But I still was outside the temple when they came out and was involved in every other way. I am glad they got married there.

  • Yeah, we support our leaders. This is true.

  • Excommunication silencing the doubters, I've never thought about it that way. I can see how you believe that. I just think of the leadership as people trying to learn how to lead. They aren't perfect, but I will support them and hope they learn from their mistakes. If you can't support them and give them a chance, it would probably be to your advantage to not be part of the church anymore. When you get baptized you make a promise to support the leaders. If you really want to be vocal about your disbelief and slander the leaders, the church has the right to revoke your membership because you are breaking your side of the baptismal covenant to support the members/leaders.

  • This seems oddly specific. The church is all about families and discourages divorce most of the time except in cases of abuse. To me this sounds anecdotal and therefore hard to argue against. I know tons of mixed marriages (mormon/not mormon) in the church and never heard of them getting encouraged to divorce their spouse. Even if the spouse went all exmormon. Maybe if the spouse was all super obsessed with how wrong the church is in their opinion and just can't let it go... I personally wouldn't really want to be around someone that constantly disagreed with something that is so essential to who I am. But the church rarely encourages divorce. So without knowing the details and both sides to the situation you are referring to, it is hard to address this point.

Just wanted to show 2 sides to every coin. Have a great day!

*Few quick edits for clarification.

level 7

If I read this correctly, becoming an apostle or prophet is a calling from God?

Why wouldn’t God have called any black men yet, they only are called to the quorum level?

And why doesn’t god call women to these positions?

One point about LGBT rights I didn’t realize until I got married and my husband was hospitalized, I was able to take care of everything for him, brought back into treatment with him and was treated totally different than previous times he’d been hospitalized before we had that piece of paper. If I knew I would have just lied and no one would have questioned us. That piece of paper is what grants certain rights and guarantees certain treatment.

level 7

Some follow up questions to the church treatment for LGBT, I hope the tone doesn’t come off as acusitory , I’m genuinely curious.

  • How many LGBT members are there in the church?

  • How many do you specifically know, and how they are treated?

  • How does mormonism react to pride parades?

  • What happens when a Mormon teenager announces that they are gay? How does the church and community handle that? Since they can’t get married and pre meritial sex is a sin, what are they supposed to do?

  • What about when they are trans? How does the church treats them pre and post op?

  • Can mormon LGBT couples attend weddings provided they pay tithe and all?

  • Can non Mormon LGBT couples do?

  • And finally, when you say the church opposes gay marriage, is it just for within the church or generally in the country? If it’s the latter, how is it different than other non mormon weddings who break mormon laws?

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level 7

Not to mention woman can't get to heaven on their own. They need a man or will be assigned to a man in the afterlife. Mormons also believe in polygamy and Joseph Smith/Brigham Young practiced polyandry.

level 7

I didn't write this but it makes a good point.

It is a group of women organized, budgeted, run and presided over by men. I keep seeing TBM women sharing this post about how after the women’s march they want to point out that they belong to the biggest women’s group in the world, and many people who enjoyed the solidarity of the marches should totes check this shit out!

The stupidity of this claim is painful to me. Let’s break it down:

All leaders of this "women's group", from the general president on down to the president of the smallest branch in the church, are selected by men in closed door meetings to which NO WOMEN are even invited.

Men oversee the budget of the entire organization, and all activities must be approved by a sacred penis holder.

The two big women’s meetings they are so proud of as “alternative marches” are presided over by men, and the keynote speech at each of these meetings is always delivered by a man.

The “women’s group” may not even hold an activity in a church building without the supervision of a man.

The curriculum taught in its classes was written by men without consulting a single woman. In fact, it was handed to the general RS presidency as a complete surpriseafter they had started writing their own curriculum and were told, no, women don’t get to decide what the “largest women group in the world” will talk about each week. That’s a man’s job.

And let’s not forget that in order to join this “women’s group” you need to join a religion that is thoroughly steeped in institutionalized misogyny. A religion that does not allow women to hold presiding offices, and that excommunicates those who have the audacity to speak up against such discrimination. An institution whose most holy rituals require that women veil their faces, swear obedience to their husbands as though to god, and promise to accept and live eternal polygamy.

It’s not a women’s group. It’s a group of women controlled and organized by men to reinforce patriarchy with a vengeance.

level 7

Doesn't matter what color your skin is.

You say this either in ignorance of what early LDS prophets say...or you're just ignoring it. Hell, you ignored the reference to what was said in the Book of Mormon about dark skin being a curse. Sort of glided past that in your response, eh? Shall we share all the MANY teachings of earlier LDS leaders about how black skin is a curse? Or how black individuals were less valient in the previous life? For something that "doesn't matter", it sure mattered to pretty much all your early prophets. Were they wrong? And if they were that wrong about something so simple, how can you trust anything these men say?

"A ton of our leadership is female". Uh, what? Oh, you mean they get to be leaders over each other. Sure, that's true. Women get to be leaders over women, but they do NOT get to be leaders over men. Ever (unless you count Primary...:). They do not lead the church. They do not lead congregations. So, sure...as long as they're never ever ever in charge of a dude, they get to be leaders.

You also gloss over the concern about grown men interviewing teens about sexuality. In any other walk of life, if a 45 year old man asked detailed questions about a 12 year olds masturbation habits, we would be screaming. And I guess we are. We are screaming. It's damaging. It's inappropriate. The exmormon sub is full of women who were deeply damaged by this. Joseph Smith himself is the perfect example of how this can groom a young girl for abuse. He married a 14 year old. The church now admits it.

The rest is nuance and I respect you have your own perspective. For me, leaving was painful. It took years to even allow myself to think critically of the church. I wasn't allowed to. I was told my eternal salvation would be risked to even open the door to a critical investigation. That's cultish, to say the least. If you can't withstand a deep dive, there's something you're hiding. In the case of the church, they were hiding quite a bit.

level 8
The Venture Bros.2 points · 7 months ago

Catholics give confession as well, certainly not as detailed. Though I am lapsed, and it's been 20 years since my last one, so maybe I never did it right.

level 9

It's not the same. In the LDS church a youth (12-18) will sit alone in a room with a grown man. Face to face. No one else in the room. If a youth confesses that she has masturbated, he will often ask more detailed question. The exmormon sub is full of horrific tales of detailed, probing questions from an older Bishop to young girls about what, how, how long, did they like it, how do they feel....it's barbaric. For those that confess to any sort of sexual relations with another, it's often the same. Can you imagine a 50 year old Bishop asking a 13 year old girl how many fingers does she use? It happens.

I'm not saying there isn't abuse within the Catholic church. Of course there is. And as a society, we've freaked out about it. We're doing the same thing here. It's not just the example of grooming for abuse we're angry about, it's the nature of the process itself. A grown male should not be alone in a room with a teen asking about sex. Even a male gynecologist will have a female attendant present during exams - all in the name of preventing the very hint of inappropriate behavior.

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level 6
3 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

Here's the thing. My father is catholic and my mother is mormon. I grew up Catholic, occasionally attending LDS services with my mother. A few years ago, my sister, who was raised LDS, got married. I could not see the wedding, because I was not Mormon However, most people in the church are outwardly extremely kind, even if their beliefs are 50% batshit crazy. Another thing that bugs me is other people’s knowledge about Mormons. I attended a Catholic high school, and in Religion class(which I am not a fan of), everyone assumed that all Mormons are polygamist, which is blatantly false. That’s only the more extreme sects, not the LDS.

level 6
4 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

My best friend growing up was Mormon. She was a beautiful blonde, blue eyed girl. She could easily cross the monkey bars and kick a homer in in kickball. She was funny. When I was around 10 they began inviting me to family fun night at their church and family night (bible study) at their home. I thought it was the greatest religion ever. Here is this family of 10 smiling blonde people who read the bible for 5 minutes and then make home made stilts together. Her big brother would tease me. Her older sisters were all cheerleaders. Her family did the talent night shows together at the church. It’s 1979. Imagine 5 blonde sisters singing “We are Family” together. It was like something from a movie.

Then they began having me attend actual church and this is when it all went south. Who was this President guy? Did you vote for him? How did he become President? Why do you have to watch movies of him? What plates are you talking about? Who was Joseph Smith? Have you see these golden plates? You believe you can earn a planet? I asked her so many questions that I was never invited back. We remained friends but I never stepped inside that ward again.

In high school, she and her boyfriend had to go to a closed door meeting with the head elder of their ward. They had to tell him everything they did (they had not gone all the way but they’d played around.) She was humiliated and embarrassed. They forced them to break up, he conveniently graduated high school early and they sent him on a mission and that was that.

Mormons have got some great family and faith building activities and are the nicest people. They might believe in Jesus but they believe in a lot of extra stuff (12 books!) that they’ve added to the Bible. That’s the problem. How much can you change a basic religion and still be considered part of that religion?

BTW my friend went off to college met a nice blonde Mormon boy from a family of 8. In his family everyone’s names starts with the same letter that happens to be the first letter of my friend’s name. I’m sure that’s not the only reason he married her, but it was a funny joke in the reception line. She’s happily married, works a bit in his office and has 4 kids with names that start with the same letter. She’s happy though.

level 6
26 points · 7 months ago

You forgot all their wacky beliefs like:

  • Go to your own planet when you die

  • Baptizing the dead

  • The required underwear

  • Becoming your own god through enough works

And I would care less about any of it if they didn't call themselves Christians.

level 7

How are they not Christians? I never got that. Christian literally means that you view Jesus Christ as a savior and your main religious figure.

I grew up Mormon, and while I’m now 100% against the church (I can go into that if you’re interested), a few things get twisted slightly.

They definitely don’t baptize dead people. They get baptized FOR dead people. Makes some level of sense if you believe that there’s a list where you have to check boxes to get into heaven. So you get baptized for your ancestors or whatever as a proxy because they didn’t have the chance. Is it weird? Sure. Do they dig up dead people to baptize them? Definitely not.

One of the few things I actually liked about the LDS church was the doctrine of man becoming God. I find it way more interesting than just dying and that being it. Like you just chill literally forever? In their beliefs, you ascend to godhood and then do exactly as God did. Create the universe, make mankind in your own image, etc., until they grow and die and ascend themselves. Infinite growth and momentum, as opposed to infinite stagnation.

level 8

Thank you for that. I wanted to say something but couldn’t find the words. Mormons are most definitely Christians! Why else would they be going around doing good deeds (as others have mentioned) in order to emulate Christ (by their own declaration).
“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” -Article of (Mormon) Faith #1.

level 9
3 points · 7 months ago

Mormons do believe in the God the father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. But they don't believe it in the same way as Christians.

Mormons believe they are three separate gods. This violates the First commandment. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Mormons believe God is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus.

I can't even fathom how you could confuse this as Christianity.

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level 8

One of the biggest problems I had with the church was the idea that your eternal rest was... more work. If you don't make it you get more work. The great promise of eternity is work without end. I take literally no joy in that promise. If there were a god, the whole premise of "you'll have to work for all eternity but it will totally be worth it, I promise" should probably be brought up with his PR team as a fatal flaw.

Oh, and, "you can only have sex if you make it in to the top tier of the celestial kingdom," angle is horseshit too. If I have to work in utter piety and subjugation for 80 years to have bland heaven sex and do home teaching for infinite years I will sow my wild oats now and eternity can happily go fuck itself. Rather be unmade than accept a mormon eternity.

level 8
[deleted]
3 points · 7 months ago

I'm not a Christian (I was raised Catholic but left years ago), but from what I do remember about my own religious education, there are many things the LDS do that irk Catholics and Protestants alike, and if I were advocating for LDS not being Christianity, it'd be on these points (Including some you made):

  • Baptism is meant to be an act done by the person able to do it. Meaning they have to be alive. Catholicism practices baptism for infants, but they are represented by four adults during the sacrament. Later an adolescent Catholic undergoes confirmation, which is where they are given the adult choice to stay in or leave the church.

  • Ergo, baptizing a dead person on their behalf probably doesn't qualify as proper baptism, and ignores the choice God gave to all people in life to accept him or not. So this Mormon practice, thoughtful as it might seem to them, goes against what the majority of Christian sects believe about baptism.

  • Becoming your own god. Well that's pretty much straightforward blasphemy. Commandment 1 lays out who God is, that there are to be no others besides God, and to worship none but him. That would obviously exclude one's self being God or becoming a god in the future.

  • Then there's the Book of Mormon. They added their own Bible to the Bible, stress it's actually more important than the Bible itself for their faith, and still want to be Christian? That doesn't sound like Christianity, it sounds like a whole new, separate faith that's broken away from it.

  • The Three Heavens (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial). That one has a counterpart in Christianity if you follow old models of the hierarchies of Heaven and Hell (None of that is biblical canon though, it's apocryphal or legend that some Christians believed in at the time or alluded to in their works i.e. The Divine Comedy, et al); however, the Mormon version of eternity has, like the other things I mentioned, no biblical source and comes from the Book of Mormon, which again has its own problems vis a vis being counted as a Christian holy book.

  • Polygamy. Nope. Not ever was that okay in Christianity. It doesn't matter if the LDS has abandoned it. Ever doing it puts Mormons more on par with Islam, which does have rules for polygamy in that faith, than it does Christians.

  • No hot drinks. Christians love their coffee. You'd think it's minor but not really.

  • Tithing. It's done in Christian sects but not in the side-eyed, not-mandatory-but-mandatory way it is for Mormons.

At best the LDS faith, from a Christian doctrinal viewpoint, is a new faith that leapt off from a Christian platform - or at least that's what I conclude based on what I know about Christianity.

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level 7
29 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

Eh, I don't really care about whacky beliefs. To me, that's not what makes a cult, it's the harms that are caused by whacky practices. Evangelical Christianity causes it's fair share of harms, and has it's fair share of whacky believes.

Non-denominational Christianity is better, and especially inclusive churches like UU or the Quakers.

Edit: Also, I just remembered there is the Community of Christ, which is pretty much a branch of Mormonism that doesn't do most of this harmful stuff that we talk about when we talk about the biggest mainstream Mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or LDS church).

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level 7

Right because Christians aren't wacky at all. Just magic babies that water ski and come back to life in three days or your money back. nothing to see here.

Maybe just maybe the mystical religious beliefs you hold are pretty wacky. But just for fun your telling me that believing that heaven is a place in the actual cosmos we live in is MORE absurd then magic sky heaven? Also that baptizing the dead bit is actually in the new testament so I guess your just too Christian to accept things in the bible. Religious clothing? That's only in the bible a few dozen times I guess you just get to pick and choose what you like huh? And for your last point Mormons don't believe any thing from God is earned by 'works' in fact all that kooky dead people baptising is exactly because they think people will be worthy of the same exaltation they hope for and would need that work done in proxy to get it. And 'being LIKE God' and 'being your own God' sound pretty different to me. I guess the details of why you hate someone are pretty insignificant as Jesus always said "hate your neighbours and spread false whiteness against them, lies are a ok with me"

level 7
[deleted]
7 points · 7 months ago

That's your problem with Mormons? That they call themselves Christians?? Not only does that make no sense, but you're wrong.. A Christian is someone who believes in Christ.....and Mormons believe in Christ............

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level 6

I don't know. The way you put a lot of this I think makes it sound far worse than it is. Many of these points aren't much different from other mainstream religions today. I think any religion, if you look at it closely, seems pretty weird, especially if you are trying to present it in that light.

How are your first four points different from pretty much any mainstream christian religion in America? Sure, there are more progressive churches now, but institutionalized racism, sexism, and anti LGBT is not something out of the ordinary even today for many churches.

Closed door interviews... sort of like a confessional booth? Sure, it's still kind of weird, but again, not too out of the ordinary. Clergy of many religions have been receiving confessions in various forms for along, long, time.

"Cult like" temple practices? What cult is it like? I feel like the term "cult" gets used for anything that seems outside the norm (meaning it's not big or old enough). While Mormon chapels are open to anyone, the temples are reserved for members in good standing. Not too weird to me, really. I've never experienced any Mormon shunning, and I've been on a few different sides over the years.

Excommunicating someone doesn't silence them. Usually it has the opposite effect. It's generally more about removing people who vocally disagree. I mean, the church isn't a democracy,

Mormons biggest religious advantage is also their biggest disadvantage. They believe they are lead directly by god. Very few other religions are willing to make that claim. It comes back to bite them when it looks like they've made a mistake, though.

Is Mormonism weird? Sure, but is it weirder than most other religions still practiced in the world? I don't know, not really to me.

level 7

I appreciate your overall defense. The problem is that the things I said are still true, even if you can try to shed a more positive light on it.

How are your first four points different from pretty much any mainstream christian religion in America? Sure, there are more progressive churches now, but institutionalized racism, sexism, and anti LGBT is not something out of the ordinary even today for many churches.

A lot of mainstream Christian churches avoid the history because they build a new church and now they aren't that old church anymore. Mormons can't do that, so they're stuck with all the heinous stuff old prophets said.

the church isn't a democracy

It was supposed to be more democratic. It was called the law of common consent. Nowadays they've abandoned that, and policy is made without church consent. Most members don't even know about policy changes when they "consent" to the leadership, because changes and financial decisions are not published to the membership. The Mormon church's scriptures warn against this very thing, but Mormons don't talk about it.

Sure, but is it weirder than most other religions still practiced in the world? I don't know, not really to me.

Valid point, but I don't think that makes it okay. Again, what makes Mormonism a target is it's unity, consistency, and visible prominence in an entire states and towns (especially in Utah). Honestly, I'd love to still support Mormonism. But only if the church would just be and do good instead of hanging on to all this ugly stuff. But it won't just be and do good, it has to be authoritarian and fight against civil rights etc. IMO, it's not the beliefs that make it a cult, it's the harmful practices. So I can't support it.

level 8

Look, I agree with you on the church's current positioning. This isn't so much an attempt to defend the church as it is to point out that Mormons aren't significantly different than other religions in many regards. I don't think an organization is a cult just because you don't like the things it does. I don't support the church and I am also very frustrated with their positioning and aggressiveness towards a lot of progressive political policies (like gay marriage and civil rights in the past). I just don't think that makes them a cult.

level 7
3 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

no it's fucking weird... I mean it's a nice fairy tale filled with genocide and Joe Smith putting a bag over his head and holding some stones.

I mean the fact there never were any lamanites or nephites ( with the sheer numbers of graves we ahould be finding from these battles) at all should tell Mormons all they need to know.

level 8

I said it's weird. I'm not sure it's particularly weirder than most other religions, though. I mean, most Christians don't see any issue with cannibalizing their own deity. That's pretty weird, too.

level 6
[deleted]
2 points · 7 months ago

It's a lot like this religion except this one is virtually unknown except to its members.

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level 6
2 points · 7 months ago

As a “jack Mormon” (one who breaks some commandments or rules, and attends as convenient) I’m not going to argue with most of what you have said- but I believe there is some clarification needed for those that read your post. Some dictionary definitions:

Cult: a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. (From dictionary.com).

A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. (From oxforddictionaries.com).

With that understanding of what a cult is- should help people to understand it is not a bad thing- it just has a negative stigma. In fact- every sect of Christianity is a cult in the devotion to a figure (Jesus Christ, God, etc). Considering rites and ceremonies- everything done in the temple isn’t magic. It is simply signs to help you learn or remember something. This isn’t any different than raising your arm to swear, or drawing a cross in the air like the Catholics do.

level 7
The Venture Bros.3 points · 7 months ago

Really, almost every religion you can think of can be classified as a cult. I'm always drawn back to the ancient Egyptians, who had cults of various deities. Yet these were mainstream religions at the time. Occasionally one would get out of hand, and the pharoahs would try to eliminate it. Always wondered if this is where the negative connotations originated.

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level 6

This is a great, balanced and fair post. Thank you!

level 6

I'm an exjw but not a JW hater, most exjw redditors are straight up JW haters. They are good people in general and no, all the elders aren't pedos like r/exjw would have you think. I feel like Mormons and JW both have their similar reasons for being cult-like.

level 7

I am an exjw and also not a hater. Some of the most people I know are JW including my mum..

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level 6
[deleted]
7 points · 7 months ago

As an ex Mormon I can disputed some of these claims. I was active in the church until about the age of 18, which was over 10 years ago. Off the top of my head:

All the church leadership is not white (although it mostly is)

There is a growing pro lgbt movement. My dad is in a leadership position and is a Mormon lgbt activist. He has given church sanctioned speeches to Mormon groups on the topic.

Patriarchal leadership is true, in the same way that catholic priests are all men (although there has also been a movement among Mormon women to change that. Nobody shunned or excommunicated for that as far as I know).

As a teen I had periodic interviews with an ecclesiastical leader about “worthiness”. They never asked about masturbation or specific sexual acts, just general questions about if you were “keeping the commandments.” Obviously it’s possible a leader could get creepy with this but I’ve never heard of it. Certainly theyre not instructed to ask children to describe sexual encounters.

Excommunication is a thing but “shunning” is not (in an official sense, people probably do it of their own accord). From what I know the criteria for excommunication are pretty severe - they won’t do it just because you question your beliefs

The “won’t counsel not to divorce” thing is confusing, but there are lots of Mormons married to non Mormons. My dad’s wife is not Mormon.

If I’m dead wrong about anything here, my bad. I’m not a PR guy for Mormonism I’m just a guy who left a long time ago and isn’t especially bitter about it. I won’t defend the history of the church, which is the main reason I left, but I will try to knock down misinformation if I see it.

level 7

All the church leadership is not white

All of the top leadership are (apostles and first presidency) and always have been. Below when you get into groups of 70 there are a few representatives of other races.

There is a growing pro lgbt movement.

Because the members are good people. The Church still fights against it. At the last major meeting in October of 2017, an apostle, Elder Oaks, basically said that members who don't support the Church in its opposition to gay marriage are not true believers.

there has also been a movement among Mormon women to change that. Nobody shunned or excommunicated for that as far as I know

The movement is called "Ordain Women", and it's leaders have been excommunicated.

Certainly theyre not instructed to ask children to describe sexual encounters

They are instructed to ask and the church has recently defended the practice because of petitions in the news asking them to stop. They have to know just what you did so they know how long you have to repent for. There are many bishops that are careful and conservative about it, and some that are very intrusive, but no consistency because they aren't formally trained. A recent leak (past year or so) revealed an apostle training leaders to "ask probing questions and let them incriminate themselves".

the criteria for excommunication are pretty severe - they won’t do it just because you question your beliefs

You are allowed not to believe and you won't get excommunicated, you just can't go to the temple. It if you start talking about why you don't believe that you get excommunicated, to silence you. Unless you are famous. People like Tyler Glenn (of the Neon Trees) and the singer for Imagine Dragons get a pass because excommunicating them would invite too much of a spotlight.

Now you know.

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level 6
[deleted]
5 points · 7 months ago

As someone with a family member in leadership in the church, I can tell you the last point is not correct. They don’t encourage divorce. It’s white common to counsel someone to stay married even to non members.

level 7

Using sweeping statements is often not accurate.

level 7

I personally know a few people whose bishop pushed hard for their spouse to divorce them after they stopped believing or questioned the religion. There's an endless amount of people over at r/exmormon with similar stories. I personally experienced this with an ex. She confessed to her bishop that we had sex and he gave her an ultimatum: I convert and we get married, she break up with me and completely end any and all contact with me forever, or be disfellowshipped and then excommunicated if she continued.

Mormonism absolutely encourages divorce from anyone that even potentially threatens to lure a member away from the cult.

level 8

Quick question, what's with all the Firstname_Middleinitial_lastname usernames on this post?

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level 7

I didn't say they counsel divorce, I said they don't counsel against it. Local small town bishops might counsel against it, but the fact is that it is not uncommon for a believer to divorce a spouse because they don't believe. This happens because they think if their spouse doesn't believe they will lose their "eternal family", so they need to trade in for a believer.

If Mormon prophets and apostles counseled against it from the pulpit, people wouldn't do it. But they don't talk about it. When /u/johndehlin asked an apostle to counsel against divorce if this was the only reason, he was basically told, "maybe someday we can do that, but right now the church isn't 'mature' enough to do that".

By top leadership refusing to address the issue, they effectively encourage it by their silence.

Effectively is the important qualifier there. They know about the problem, and do nothing to help.

level 8

Then why have people in wards I've been in as long ago as the 80s said that divorce should only happen when there is abuse and in all other cases should be avoided hopefully through licenced counseling and forgiveness? Huh weird I guess being Mormon for decades is no way to figure out what those Mormons believe. Better go check myself for horns.....

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level 6

This is a great description. I don't really know anything about Mormon practices. This makes it seem very culty.

level 7

It's pretty similar to most conservative religions out there. Imo lots of them seem culty. I'm an exmormon (not an angry, angsty one like most in r/exmormons) so if you have any questions feel free to ask.

level 8

I do have questions! How does the Mormon church reconcile the story of John Smith being the only one to translate the gold plates and his inability to reproduce their exact wording. To me this seems like a huge red flag about the plausibility of the story.

level 9

Well, they believe he was picked the God to do the translation with God's assistance through a set of seer stones that were used as spectacles called Urim and Thummim (if you search make sure to specific lds or Mormon because it's a common religious term). They also do believe that Joseph did it word for word as evidenced by his wife's quotation who was his first scribe.

When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made a mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling

Also, Here's a brief bit by the church in the process of the translation.

level 10

Thank you for your great answers! What about the magic underware?

level 6

Interesting how people always say how nice and great Mormons are but then bash the doctrine so harshly. How can a bad tree bring forth such good fruit?

level 7

People are naturally inclined to goodness unless some wires are crossed in the brain. And the good people of Mormonism hold the good things dearly while doing their best to ignore the bad things. The real question is why the members don't demand more goodness from their church, and the answer is indoctrination and being generally uninformed. They like the good clean Mormon life and don't think too much about the collateral damage from the peripheral authoritarian poison that doesn't effect them as long as they fall in line.

level 6

Most of what the Mormon church does is good? Like what? They are horrific when it comes to. Charity and outreach in their communities, which is about the most basic things a church could be doing.

level 7

Downvoted but true. The LDS church rakes in billions but leans on members for money all the time and pushing them for free labor. They spent more to build a fucking shopping mall in Salt Lake City than they did on charity in the previous 30 years combined. They love at every chance to proclaim that they have "No paid clergy" but their church leadership live in million dollar mansions, ride in cars worth 6 figures and ride private jets all over the world on the dime of the church.

level 8

Story time.

I live in a small town, and I'd say we're a out 1/4 Mormon. Was higher when j grew up but we've had a huge influx over the last two decades of non Mormons.

Anyway,we had/have a small Christian youth center that used to be a place teenagers could hang out at after school that over the decades has declined in use. Recently, it's been turned into a warming center for homeless people at night, staffed with volunteers from various churches in the area (some cook a dinner, some leave a pair of volunteers to stay overnight).

Anyway, I found out that the Mormon church was having men volunteer to say over night, which really impressed me. Many of our small churches coordinate their limited resources in community outreach, but this was the first time I ever remember the Mormons actively taking part in a non Mormon function. Low bar to impress me, but it was a nice change. And I feel strongly about the homeless.

Recently two women who were at the center to stay overnight got into a fist fight,police were called, and then emptied the center for the night. One of the two Mormon volunteers who had shown up for the night was heard by the ladies from the Lutheran Church who were there to serve dinner to be loudly saying "haha I guess we don't have to kick them out in the morning now". This really upset the other volunteers. I mean, at least the Mormons were there volunteering, but it still see.s fske to me.

level 9

Individual Mormons are usually great about volunteering and charity work. The problem is the hierarchy. The further up you go the more disingenuous they are, the more corruption there Is, and the more the rank and file members idolize and blindly support them.

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level 5

Yeah, I've always thought those two groups were similar. They both seem like nice people, but really weird.

level 6
4 points · 7 months ago

If you're measuring weirdness as difference from the norm, Jehovah's Witnesses definitely win that race. They don't celebrate holidays... birthdays included, like what? In my elementary class there was a kid who legitimately didn't even know when his birthday was. To him it'd be like knowing your SSN at 11yo. At 11 I would've independently reinvented calculus if it could make my birthday come any sooner. (And once I hit 21 that goal did a 180)

level 7

In a way I kind of get it on the holidays. It's definitely strange though. Even the Amish have holidays.

Edit: And if you want to talk about weird I have two words for you. MAGIC UNDERWEAR

level 8

You don't even know the half of it...

level 9

I know at least half of it.

level 10

If magic underwear is your go-to, you know far less than you think you do.

level 5

Exjw here. They suck. We at r/exjw are very excited for Leah's special. :)

level 5

I have a lot of family members that are JWs. They are a little naive but nothing to crazy. But my family aren't Jesus freaks. Anyone who follows any religious book too closely makes it into a cult.

level 6

That's how they present to just about everybody... until you're actually in. Then they hold your social structure hostage- especially for people born into the religion who only know other Jehovah's Witnesses.

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level 6
[deleted]
26 points · 7 months ago

Eh, would they deny blood transfusions to their children in the name of their religion? I can accept a lot about people’s beliefs but that one gets me.

level 6
5 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago
level 5

JW make the Mormons look normal.

level 5
Comment deleted7 months ago(28 children)
level 6

Anyone who is a proud Mormon is a disgusting human being.

I wouldn't go that far. I'd say more like brainwashed.

level 7

I totally forgot to watch this, I found it once with my ex girlfriend (Mormon) and she wouldn’t let me watch it.

level 6

I’m no longer as active as I used to be but I still think is a nice place. (At least it worked for me)

South Park handled it perfectly, this I how I feel: https://youtu.be/dsmyzC4AkFQ

level 7

Great example of Gary's cognitive dissonance

level 6

Maybe we have different definitions of what makes a person disgusting, but I haven't yet met a Mormon following Mormon teachings who's a disgusting human being. People I do find disgusting are: Trump for his sexual remarks (among other things), ardent Trump supporters for their warped perspective that Trump is a good person, sexual predators like Roy Moore, Wall Street financiers and corporate executives who think it's fine to exploit others for gain, and I could go on. There's nothing among the tenants of Mormonism that make them disgusting. There are some cultural issues and social quirks among Mormon people but those things don't make them disgusting. I'd recommend saving your disgust for actually deplorable people.

level 7

Joseph Smith was a sexual predator.

level 8

But your run of the mill Mormon in 2018 is not.

level 9

But your run of the mill Mormon in 2018 believes he is the prophet of God.

level 7

Mormons mounted a concerted political campaign to legally alienate gay Americans from their fundamental, civil, and Constitutional right to enter a civil marriage.

It's one thing for a religion to have its own crackpot notions about gay folks (like the Mormon's notion that being gay is some kind of curable disorder), and to leverage those crackpot notions to rationalize discrimination within its own doctrine and houses of worship.

But it's another thing entirely for a religion to organize at the pulpit and deploy the church treasury to attack the legal rights of any group of Americans.

We apparently have different definitions of what constitutes disgusting, because that demonstration of Mormon theocracy in action was fucking disgusting.

And proving politics does indeed make strange bedfellows, the Catholic church provided the Mormons a big assist with that shitshow. They just had the good sense not to try to take credit for it.

level 8

If you have beef with the religion or church, that's fine but an everyday Mormon is going to be way more chill and are decent human beings. I'd hope you judge an individual on their actions rather than what label they have.

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level 5

Do you actually send 20% of your income to the church? What's that...like? To just be....20% poorer?

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level 4

The Jehovah's Witnesses shun family members who leave the religion, though I don't know if they go as far as Scientologists.

I'd like to see an episode about the Nation of Islam (who partner with Scientology on some projects).

level 5

There’s a spectrum. Some JW’s would probably go as far as Scientologists when it comes to excommunicated family members; others are a little more willing to bend the rules and keep in touch with those family members.

level 5

I know a JW family that ex-communicated two sons and their families. They went absolutely zero contact and didn't even tell the sons when the father was diagnosed with cancer. They don't do any of the harassment that Scientology uses though.

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level 5

Scientologists have killed, JW's do the same.

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level 5

A family friend is ex-JW, and has confirmed this. The only reason she hasn't made an official split is because she'd be cut off from her family, but she loathes the "religion." It's fucked.

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level 4

They should all be in the list to be honest

level 5
8 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

I grew up in the church. Christian. Very loving people, supportive. Would talk about anything and everything, all the money we donated went to keeping the church running (which was always in debt) and to the missionaries overseas. We used to openly talk about non-belief. I even asked my dad growing up "What if I don't believe" he told me "Well, that's between you and God... nobody can make you believe".

None of it ever felt pressured or cult like. Ever. In fact it brought me into contact with people I would have never socialised with in general and helped round me out, I believe.

It was like a family and still is.

level 6

Really? I have not met any Ex-JW that would agree with you.

Maybe if the Cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses were not paying out fines daily to stay out of court, or restitution to people that were abused by elders.

level 7

I'm not talking about the JW church. I'm talking about a Christian church.

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level 4

Why?

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level 3

Awwww, yissssss.

level 3

What episode is AMWAY?

level 4

Amway? What's Amway? This is Quixtar!

level 4
Comment deleted7 months ago(1 child)
level 5
2 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

That's a bummer. Got a close friend right now goin thru all that too. Don't wanna push em away but ya, it's fucked. Thanks 4 the link.

level 3

Yay I was so hoping for this!!

level 3

What I thought was kinda weird is that my MIL(she is Jehovah) told me she wouldn't let her kids watch anything ending in "-mon" (i.e. pokemon, digimon) because it wadsthe DEVIL.

There was some lots of other things they weren't allowed to do growing up.

level 3

she better do luthernism too. Those mfs are weird.

level 3

What I thought was kinda weird is that my MIL(she is Jehovah) told me she wouldn't let her kids watch anything ending in "-mon" (i.e. pokemon, digimon) because it wadsthe DEVIL.

There was some lots of other things they weren't allowed to do growing up.

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level 2

Isn't nexium for acid reflux?

level 3
334 points · 7 months ago

That's how it starts.

level 4

The fever, the rage...

level 5

The feeling of...helplessness

level 6

and feeling not so fresh

level 6

That turns good men gassy

level 5

The high chief Jamel Irief takes the stage...

level 4
18 points · 7 months ago

You can take the blue pill, the red pill, or the purple pill.

level 4

we go back to your house?

level 3

Work in pharmacy, use Esomeprozole. It's the generic and works better than anything else. But yeah, screw cults.

level 4

Combining the promotion of equally efficacious generics and hatred for cults? Take my upvote.

level 4

How does it differ from Omeprozole (sp?)? I have horrid gastritis from NSAIDs and the Omeprozole doesn't help all that much.

level 5

It does pretty much the same thing, but it supposedly "heals" the esophagus. I had horrible GERD and esomprozole was 10x more effective than omeprozole. You've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain, so I'd definitely recommend at least trying it for a month or so.

level 6

Doctor has prescribed Pantoprazole for me, but it's prescription (it has worked great to relieve my gastric pain). Been wondering about a generic OTC that would provide the same relief.

Gotta love Reddit. Always provides information in the weirdest of places and ways.

level 7

Pantoprozole is otc, generic protonix. The pharmacists do recommend not exceeding a month of trying a new otc though. At that point it's best to talk to your doctor about switching to something else or recommendation to seeing a specialist. Edit: prescription strength does vary from otc. Usually prescription is at a much higher doseage.

level 8

Thanks.

level 5

Omeprazole is a mixture of two stereoisomers (the molecules have the same atoms but arranged slightly differently—they are mirrror images or each other). Esomeprazole is just one of the stereoisomers from omeprazole. One view is that esomeprazole contains the more effective isomer from omeprazole so it works better. A more cynical view is that when the patents were running out on omeprazole, it’s developer launched a new drug with new patents.

Lansoprazole is another similar drug that works in basically the same way and is available over the counter. There a few others available by prescription. Might be worth trying some until you find one that works.

level 6

This guy pharmaceuticals.

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level 5

Couldn't tell you specifically cause I'm not a pharmacist, but all the ones I work with recommend it over omperazole, generic Prilosec. My cousins that have switched noticed a big improvement. Get you a one month over the counter and see if you like it.

level 4

Would it help if it's bile and not acid doing damage?

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level 3

It's for ALL your troubles. Would you like to step in and have a free personality test?

level 3

Larry the Cable Guy started a cult around Prilosec, too. Things are out of control.

level 3

My brainwashing started with a daily pill to relieve me of my eternal burning.

level 2
[deleted]
30 points · 7 months ago

If you read the article they specifically mention NXIVM

level 2
129 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

Yeah I would be interested to know about that one. How on earth does one creepy cult guy that looks like an IT manager version of Stephen King manage to make a sex cult with some of the most attractive actresses in hollywood?

Seriously Google Keith raniere up. He looks like Stephen King with a hairpiece on

I mean they used to have grace park, and Kristin kreuk, quite a lot of famous television actresses

level 3

I guess it's similar to becoming rich.. the first million is the hardest.

And for cult leaders the first celebrity follower probably is the hardest.

Once they have the first one they can leverage that to get more.

level 4
31 points · 7 months ago

That's probably a really apt description of what actually happened. Weird.

level 4

That's exactly what happened. Research: Celebrity Center

level 4

That sounds a lot like Movie 43.

level 3
35 points · 7 months ago

I googled and im dissapointed. Looks like a normal dude to me. Youre exaggerating hard.

level 4

Look at him in the 80s, when he started

level 6

That's after he took off. He turned into Gaius Baltar. Which may partly explains why he attracted so many bsg actresses.

I was talking about when he first met his wife and looked like a dopey, pudgy 80s scam artist with his first pyramid scheme.

level 7

oh, okay. That makes sense!

level 4

Yeah, the guy isn't anything special but he's not unattractive.

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level 3

He looks like if Jared Leto played Clark Kent.

level 3
level 3

I googled him, and he was pretty damn hot in the beginning, just looks creepy now.

level 4

Eurgh

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level 2

Awe shit... I liked Smallville. Apparently Kristen Kreuk is a member too and I had no idea. Do you think Scotty knew?

level 3

Oh...oh no. Not Lana. :(

level 4

She'll always be Fiona to me.

level 3

Scotty doesn't know!

level 4

I've seen that movie like 100 times, and every time Matt Damon shows up and sings that song I find myself saying "Oh shit, I totally forgot Matt Damon is in this movie." What a weird cameo.

level 5

He was filming "The Brothers Grimm" in the Czech Republic at the same time they were making "Euro Trip." (I think I read somewhere that Damon went to school with one of the filmmakers.)

level 3
11 points · 7 months ago

I heard she got out (after getting Allison Mack in...)

level 4

I thought Alison Mack was in some other weird cult.

level 2

Allison Mack and the lady who played Lana Lang got involved with that cult.

Somebody saaaaaave meeeeeeeeee

level 3

Lana Lang left. I never liked Allison Mack on that show. She always rubbed me the wrong way.

level 4
[deleted]
3 points · 7 months ago

She was annoying

level 4
2 points · 7 months ago

Never got past season 3 I think of Smallville, borrowed the DVDs from my dad's co-worker when I was kid, but fuck was Chloe (Allison Mack) a whiny bitch... been recently thinking of finishing up the series for some reason, any good?

level 5

I stopped watching around season 3 or 4.

level 2
10 points · 7 months ago

Chloe Sullivan never would've fallen for that shit.

level 2
8 points · 7 months ago

Also Nikki Clyne (Cally from Battlestar Galactica).

level 3
Better Call Saul8 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

Wow I had no idea they had to write her out of the show because of this. I though it was a strange decision of the writers but it turns out she forced their hands. Fuck her, ruined a lot of things about the final season of a great show.

This link also says Grace Park (Boomer/Sharon from BSG) is or used to be a member. There are videos with her and the founder as well: http://artvoice.com/2017/11/21/nicki-clyne-quit-acting-broke-contract-battlestar-galatica-producers-join-nxivm-mission-full-time/#.WlpU_nOIa7M

level 4
3 points · 7 months ago

I hadn't heard about Grace Park being involved, that's too bad. After she left Hawaii 5-0, I was hoping she would get another tv gig. Sharon and Starbuck were my favorites.

I had heard that Nicki and Allison were married, to keep Nicki in the states.

level 5
Better Call Saul3 points · 7 months ago

That article even suggested that the real reason Grace Park left Hawaii Five-0 might be because of Nvixym. Might just be a rumor, but I saw several other articles saying similar things.

level 2

I've never heard of that

level 2

Third sentence of the article.

level 2

Damn that chick was a total babe when smallville was on tv.

level 3

"Damn Allison you are a total babe!!" And that kids is how I inadvertent was the catalyst that started a cult.

level 2

Allison Mack is the girl from Smallville, right? I liked her. Why would she be so gullible?

level 3

She did get hit on the head an awful lot.

level 2

I take a pill called Nexium for acid reflux

level 2

There was a 20/20 episode about them recently.

level 2

The secret world of Allison Mack

level 2

I hope President Trump removes Scientology’s tax exempt status

level 3

Ok, then they need to remove tax exempt status from all religious organizations

level 4

Uh yea I live in Clearwater, this is NOT a religion. They pack these people on to busses like cockroaches and haul them around town. They live in dilapidated, infested apartments in a terrible part of town. You can see the security cameras ALL OVER the property. They walk around like zombies. They’re prisoners, this is not a religion.

level 5

I'm just saying, giving special treatment or rules to some organizations and not all is unfair. I don't agree with Scientology, but at the same time there's other local organizations that would also need to no longer be tax exempt.

level 6

They infiltrated the FBI to get tax exempt status. They never deserved it in the first place. They’re doing the same thing on our local governments level.

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level 2

Sounds similar to landmark forum.

level 2

On Wikipedia it says she left the organization

level 2

Name sounds more like a cryptocurrency than a cult

level 2

Holy shit I had no idea my girl Chloe was in that cult! Damn. And it looks like Lana is judging from the comments here. I may need to join it to be with them

level 3

No Kristen left apparently. Iirc AM asked her to join,she saw what it was about and left

level 4

Good to hear. I always had a crush on Kristen when I was younger.

level 2
[deleted]
1 point · 7 months ago

Mack is still a part of that organization?

level 3

Not only is she still a part of it, she's like a high ranking member.

level 2

Really? That's some small-time shit. I hope they look into Mormonism and JW.

level 2

I'm no detective but im all ready seeing red flags all over this cult and im sure I would find more red flags if i dive in the rabbit hole. I guess you can do anything if you are rich.

level 2

Heart burn medication? What cult worships an over the counter heart burn medication?

level 2

Actually, Allison Mack left that particular group. Kristen Kreuk (spelling?) is still a member, last I checked, though she might've left.

level 3

Other way around Kreuk joined thanks to an old bf. Back when it was just a self improvement group. Told Mack to join so she did. Then Kreuk left before the sex shit became a thing.

level 4

I double checked. Mack definitely left the group. I can't find a source for Kreuk leaving, but I can't find one for her staying, either.

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level 2

I'm on nexium for acid reflux. Is this something sort of initiation?

level 2

Savior of Acid reflux

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