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level 1

I was once part of a mainstream cult called The Gate, based on the 12 step principle. It's in the uk and semi-Christian so I wasn't expecting it to be one, but it was.

I left and lost a lot of friends as they had to shun me.

More common than you think.

level 2
287 points · 7 months ago

Sage advice : if at any point you end up having to shun people, its probably a cult.

level 4

As an ex Jehovahs Witness this is 100% correct.

level 3
Comment deleted7 months ago(1 child)
level 4
[deleted]
1 point · 7 months ago

DnD reference maybe

level 3

"excommunicated" is exactly what it sounds like.

level 4

Even if it is, which it isn't (it means that you aren't allowed to take Eucharist, do confession, and all the other Catholic stuff), excommunication doesn't happen to everyone that leaves Catholicism or what have you, it happens to people who've done major things against Catholicism like impersonated a priest and tried to do rituals, assaulting church hierarchy, killing people, or tries to corrupt the church.

level 5

Sorry, but I don't think you're correct.

"Refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff" is the Catholic definition of schism.

Automatic excommunication applies to nine sins: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), "violating the sacred species" (Id. 1367), physically attacking the pope (Id. 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (Id. 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (Id. 1382), directly violating the seal of confession (Id.1388:1), and having an abortion or assisting in one (Id. 1398).

See, e.g. http://www.pastoralplanning.com/Jubilee/Sins_Reserved_to_the-Pope.pdf and https://www.catholic.com/index.php/qa/apart-from-abortion-are-there-other-sins-that-incur-automatic-excommunication

level 6

That's in the context of orthodox bishops and priests, aka schismatics

level 7

What makes you say that?

level 8

I mean the first clue is in the term itself, and the nature of the schism (orthodox priests refused to recognize the authority of the Roman pontiff)

level 9

Clues? I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. I provided concrete examples with citations to Canon Law.

As I said, Canon Law defines schism as "Refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff."

That applies to all persons.

The scope of the sin is not limited merely to Orthodox clergy and I cannot imagine why you think that might be the case.

Are you just making stuff up?

level 10

By that logic literally everyone who wasn't Catholic would be excommunicated immediately, which simply isn't true.

level 3
-8 points · 7 months ago(5 children)
level 4

Catholics dont shun people who leave

level 5

They totally do. And more so shun non Catholics. But that is more a person to person thing. The church doesn't do this, which is a big difference.

level 6

I don't know any Catholics that shun non Catholics... But then again, I guess I wouldn't, being shunned.

level 5

My ex-Catholic father begs to differ.

level 4

Catholicism doesn't shun ppl. Some Catholics may, but it's not a doctrinal part of their faith. I'd say most Christian faiths in general don't shun ppl who leave. Mainstream protestantism certainly doesn't.

level 3

I immediately thought of people who turn on the Trump admin and the immediate shunning they receive

level 3
[deleted]
-1 points · 7 months ago

What if they tell me I need to shun white supremacist, cartel members, child rapist, slavers, ect.

There are REALLY shitty people in the world sometimes who really deserve to be cut out of your life to the best that you can. If I found out someone I knew was selling cocaine to 5th graders, then I would shun he hell out of them (after reporting them). I don't think that's a bad thing.

level 4

Shunning people assures that those people will never be anything more than white supremacist child raping cartel slavers, because now the only person talking to them are other people who agree with them and will galvanize their ideology.

level 4

Cults are big about shunning ex-members and even family and friends who might be critical of said cult.

level 4

Black belt in Shun-Fu

level 3

A bit misleading, you mean shunning people for leaving. I'm shunning Trump, am I in a cult?

level 4

I meant personally shunning people you know. Like, you knew Jeff really well in your church but when you left he shunned you for it. Or youre dating becky but shes not in your church so your parents wont let you marry her etc.

level 2

I had an Uncle on my Dad’s side of the family who joined a cult back in the 60’s. He disappeared for 15 years, and then was found in an unmarked grave in Mesa, Arizona. He originally lived 12 hours north of the U.S-Canadian border. It was discovered that the cult he joined was one of those suicide cults.

level 3

Excuse the dark question but...who burried them?

level 4

It’s all good.

I honestly don’t know. I assume not everyone in the cult committed suicide or he might have been killed before. It’s really hard getting information, I’m going to try (one day) to get info from the Mesa P.D and hopefully find some closure. It’s just difficult getting in contact with the right people when you’re in the middle of nowhere in a different country.

Edit: I’m not even sure of the name of the Cult. It’s all sort of hush-hush because no community likes to admit they have a suicide cult in their midst.

level 3

Curious how someone finds and identifies someone in an unmarked grave...?

Do people just go around digging up bodies?

level 4

Unfortunately, I don’t know the full history. That side of the family didn’t really talk much about it, which is fair, and my parents passed away before I could really pry.

Everything I’ve learned about him has been independent research.

level 2
54 points · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

Do you have any links i could read? I was in a similar sounding thing in the US. It was a drug treatment program created by Bob Meehan, it is pretty much a facade to take money from rich, concerned parents and take advantage of adolescents with drug problems, mental issues or sometimes they just convince you that you do have those. There's a documentary called The Group made by former members, it's very interesting and on YouTube i believe.

Edit: found a link to the documentary if anyone was curious https://youtu.be/BXBLYEeF5vs

level 2

12-step programs are definitely cultish. They have their own language and mantras, and they shame anyone who dares not walk in lockstep with everyone else.

level 3
Comment deleted7 months ago(1 child)
level 4

This just makes me think of all of the nonsense vocabulary and terms I develop in a relationship and how it's a sort of binding force but also alienating as so much communication is a bunch of inside jokes.

I am a cult leader. I'm in the wrong line of work.

level 3

I disagree with this.

12 step programs can be, and sometimes are, used as a cult but that lies squarely on the shoulders of the men and women who abuse the vulnerable people around them.

The vast majority of people (in NA at least) are legitimately good people who found the 12 step program helpful to breaking addiction and living a happy life. These people are available to help newcomers figure it out for themselves by sharing their experience and leaving all conclusions to the individual to make. That is what a 12 step program should look like.

There are those that think they know better and that dictating behavior and shunning those who disagree is what they're supposed to do. These assholes don't see or don't care about the real damage they're doing to people who need help.

I hate that these people are out there giving NA a bad reputation, because who wants to get help from people like that? It's sad and infuriating.

Real NA is making yourself and experience available to any who want to give recovery a chance and respecting each person as an individual who needs to make their own decisions. Love and respect have to be present or you simply aren't working recovery.

level 4
Comment deleted7 months ago(3 children)
level 5
1 point · 7 months ago · edited 7 months ago

That's a totally different debate and one that has merit, but the effectiveness of NA/AA vs anything else has nothing to do with it being a cult.

I won't bother debating science based approaches (which have shown very promising results) vs 12 step because it always devolves into a shitfest whenever I've seen it.

NA does work. Maybe not for everybody, but that's why it's a take it or leave it program.

level 6
Comment deleted7 months ago(0 children)
level 7

I agree that sentencing people to 12 step is terrible. This isn't something that can be forced on people, and it gives them understandable resentment towards both NA and the court system.

It is important to remember that it's the courts who force people to attend, not NA. It also forces NA into participating by making groups sign attendance sheets. Each group individually makes the decision to sign or not, but the argument for signing is simply so that nobody gets turned away. I wish all groups said no so that the courts would stop, but again each decision is made independently so that won't ever happen.

level 4

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him

Atheist here. Yep, that's a cult.

level 5

Atheist here, not a cult.

level 6

What are the secret rules of atheism, then?

level 7

Not sure what you're driving at, but I'm not getting into a pissing match with strangers. You believe what you will, all of us are allowed to be wrong sometimes.

level 8

No, you are in the wrong this time, and it's not ok, you have been brainwashed into supporting Nazism. You need to wake up.

level 9

That's nice dear.

level 10
-1 points · 7 months ago

Cool story, commie scum. Go move to Venezuela, I hear it's a socialist shithole, you'd love it there.

level 3

And they're often court-mandated, which is horrific.

level 3

They're definitely cultish with how militant many of the members are when it comes to recruiting.

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