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Future Relief Line North subway possible corridors

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level 1
MarkhamOriginal Poster49 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

Photos taken from boards shown at the latest public meeting at Thorncliffe Park PS.

Six possible corridors identified north of Pape station:

1: North up Bayview after connecting to Laird station on the Eglinton Crosstown. Meet the Yonge University Line at Finch station.

2: North up Leslie to meet the Sheppard line at Leslie station/Oriole GO station. I forgot to take pictures, but some of the boards had this corridoe continuing north up the Richmond Hill GO line tracks with a potential station at Old Cummer GO. Lady that I spoke to also said they could potentially use the GO line to send trains all the way to Richmond Hill and beyond.

3: North up Don Mills hitting the high density neighborhoods of Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park, but veering westwards to continue up Leslie and meeting Line 4 at Leslie station/Oriole GO station. Again, possible future use of the GO line tracks.

4: Probably the most obvious corridor, straight north up Don Mills. Although not shown on these boards, other boards showing potential station areas showed the Seneca campus at Finch. Hits the high density neighborhoods of Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park, but limited development potential at York Mills and Don Mills.

5: The most interesting corridor in my opinion, north up Don Mills but veering eastwards this time towards Victoria Park. Potential station off the DVP with a connection to the Richmond Hill GO line? Interesting choice. A compromise between corridors 4 and 6. Potential extension of the Sheppard line east to Victoria Park.

6: North up Victoria Park, completely missing the high density neighborhoods of Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park, although according to the Metrolinx and TTC representatives there, this corridor had the highest ridership at intial ridership projections. Easy connection for those in Scarborough. Again, potential extension of the Sheppard line east to Victoria Park.

The representatives there also mentioned that corridors 5 and 6 had the option of connecting to the Sheppard line to create a giant half-loop. This means the "stubway" wouldn't go east towards Scarborough, but instead turning south towards downtown. Interesting option!

A full list of possible station areas (even beyond the identified corridors): http://imgur.com/3z9nOaA

level 2
Woburn37 points · 3 months ago

For me I see 4 and 5 being the only real options. Skipping Thorncliff Park would be insane since something like 30,000 people live in that area alone and it's one of the densest neighborhoods in the entire city. As well Science Centre station is just a much better transfer point for the Crosstown since the station is already underground and will be the site of a large Bus Terminal.

level 3
5 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

I agree with all your points re: option 5 and would like to offer two more:

  • The station at Science Centre would serve the future development on the Celestica lands.

  • The Orientation on Vic Park makes this very marketable to the residents of Scarborough. "We're building more transit connections for Scarborough residents".

level 4
Agincourt1 point · 3 months ago

That marketing would work on me. Having subways closer to oneself would seem to effective for a lot of people vs subways further away.

level 3
3 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

Yup. Option 1 Station B is a neighbourhood where the locals absolutely will not want nor allow intensification. I like option 4 over 5 because 4 meets up directly with the subway at Don Mills, so it is only 1 transfer to get to Yonge and then north - while options 5 and 6 only meet the light rail, which means two transfers instead of one.

Edit: whoops, I totally didn't notice that they're proposing/suggesting extending the Sheppard subway to meet options 5 and 6!

Making a loop to Sheppard line

Would they actually connect this line to Sheppard? Is that even possible? Or would it have to remain a terminal for both?

level 4
Woburn3 points · 3 months ago

I'm not all to sure about connecting the DRL to the Sheppard Line. Not because I think its a bad idea, but because I am not sure it would be possible to do without loosing the station at Vic Park or creating a large turning arc. Its sort of the same problem SmartTrack had with the Eglinton section. You either loose the station, or you increase the construction.

level 2
Willowdale13 points · 3 months ago

Making a loop to Sheppard line actually made me strongly consider 5 and 6 more. 4 seems to be the easiest but no 5 really entice me with a possible loop

level 3
East Danforth4 points · 3 months ago

If you do 6, you could do a spur on Ellesmere Road to Scarborough Town Centre - and it would intersect with the GO RER/SmartTrack at Ellesmere Station along the way. That would probably be cheaper and more helpful of a line than the Scarborough Subway as planned.

level 4
East Danforth5 points · 3 months ago

The SSE will be built. It's just political suicide to fight it at this point, unless you don't need votes from Scarborough.

It's stupid, but people from Scarborough will derail the world if that doesn't get built.

level 4
The Danforth1 point · 3 months ago

There won't be a RER station at Ellesmere...

level 3
[deleted]
3 points · 3 months ago

6 is ridiculous, the first few stations are in extremely low density suburbia with no potential for densification... and live right by one of those stations in one of those low density neighbourhoods lol... 4 is the most logical by far of any of these options.

level 4

The entire area at the corner of Eglinton and Vic Park is about to be torn down and replaced by massive condos. And the low-rise apartments and shopping plazas along Vic Park are prime area for development. And some of those crap plazas along O'Connor are already slated for teardown and condos. This area isn't developed at the moment because it's low income and has garbage transit access...if anything it's the most logical route (cheapest to build, highest population density, most available land for tunnelling/stations/redevelopment, furthest towards Scarborough allowing it to act as a relief line for all the people who are going to get screwed by a 1-stop subway removing their SRT station, furthest away from existing high-speed transit which benefits the most people).

level 4
Moss Park2 points · 3 months ago

with no potential for densification

What makes you say that?

level 5
[deleted]
-1 points · 3 months ago

near the first two stations are either mcmansions with huge lots north of o'connor on the ravine, or south are hundreds of semi-detached homes in very established neighbourhoods, neither of which will be easily densified

level 2

Option 1 just seems like a waste to run it so close to Yonge

level 2
Don Mills4 points · 3 months ago

For selfish reasons I'd go for #2, but I think #4 makes the most sense as it would serve the most people.

level 2

Thanks for this. For option 4 I’ve wondered (to your point about York mills) could the line jog west to tie into the go line midblock between don mills and Leslie at York mills. It puts it into the centre of the employment district which could morph into a mixed use, dense area.

level 1
Leaside15 points · 3 months ago

Bayview and Leslie should be out of the running right off the bat.

Straight up Don Mills seems like the best option

level 1

I really wish these maps had population density (both residential and work) on them. I'm pretty sure the Bayview and Leslie variants would eliminate themselves this way.

Although Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park are both very high density and would benefit from more transit, with the Eglinton Crosstown they're about to be well enough connected to the existing system I'm not sure it justifies a new subway stop there. I'd really like to see that neighborhood get something like an express bus system connecting the areas with apartment towers, schools, shopping centers, and ECT - the traffic is manageable enough even at rush hour with the priority lanes they already have in place on Don Mills to get around quickly if they had a couple express routes.

3 chases the GO rail line so closely I feel like adding an additional station or two to that line would provide similar service for a fraction of the cost.

For me the two most viable options are 5 and 6. I can see the cost of 5 being prohibitive (crossing the park twice can't be cheap). 6 serves the section of East York that has currently been abandoned by transit. It's currently moderately low density, but I suspect that is in part because you need a car to live there. East York and the Golden Mile are in my opinion about to go through a massive period of redevelopment and expension as the ECT gets built and the Danforth has become completely unaffordable for most families. The stretch up Vic Park north of Eglinton is fairly high density, and I can see the current commercial plazas being torn down and replaced with condos since there's a decent view of the Don Valley from a height.

Then again I'll be dead before any of this gets built, so whatever.

level 2
25 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

I really wish these maps had population density

You ask and you shall get...

I coloured the proposed 6 routes as "red", and put a number label on each of them.

This is a density map the city used not long ago for planning transit and which they used for looking into the Sheppard extension and just before they chose the routing for the DRL South.

It actually looks like #5 and #6 do have the highest density (sorry /u/justatesttesttest... I was surprised to realize this also).

Very interesting.

5 seems to make more sense than 6 from a strict density perspective. But an argument can be made that 6 might make more sense from an artery-feeder perspective (that buses have much easier access line six from feeder roads on the lowest density part, and are thus able to bring much larger masses of people to line 6 from further away than what could be easily brought to line 5. Keep in mind, if Sheppard is a 1 stop line, line 6 can make up for that shortcoming).

Option 4 isn't that bad either. Just like option 6 has low density on the southern end, option 4 has low density on the northern end. Line 5 sort of bridges the shortfalls of both line 4 and line 6 (from a density perspective).

Edit: I'm now inclined to agree with /u/feb914 that completing the Sheppard loop looks to be one of the best options, with 4, 5 & 6, and the possibilities for artery transit feeding into that loop, and thus capturing a greater ridership beyond just those who live directly on the proposed lines 4, 5 & 6). Each of them have advantages and disadvantages.

level 3

Just looking at that density map makes me think we should have built a Finch line instead of the Sheppard one...

level 4
North York Centre4 points · 3 months ago

FWIW, Sheppard probably does make more sense than Finch as a transit corridor, as it tends to be more mixed-use.

level 2
MarkhamOriginal Poster7 points · 3 months ago

They had a bunch of graphics showing auto dependency, density (residential and commercial), etc. but I unfortunately didn't take pictures.

I would highly recommend going to the next public meeting they have! The representatives that were there were all highly knowledgeable and friendly, and were very open to suggestions and criticism.

level 3

I didn't even know they were having these. They're running the line through my neighborhood regardless of final route, so I should probably be paying more attention.

level 2

This is an excellent interactive density map. It only shows residential unfortunately, but still very useful. It's also up-to-date from the last census unlike the other one someone posted.

level 2

Route 5 leaves such an awkward gap between Don Mills + Vic Park station, and it would be a travesty if they had to be connected by an LRT with really awkward transfers.

Ideally they could extend Line 4 to Vic Park. Or alternately, they could have the DRL split in the north end and send trains to both Vic Park + Don Mills.

There are some heavy commercial areas at both Don Mills/York Mills as well as Vic Park/Sheppard that would be great if both could somehow be hit.

level 1
East Danforth32 points · 3 months ago

It would be a huge wasted opportunity if they choose an option that doesn't extend the Sheppard Stubway to make it one continuous line.

level 2

Actually extending the Sheppard subway might reduce ridership because I strongly suspect people are only currently taking it to get to the Yonge line and if you can get downtown without that, you'll probably lose a lot of people. Theoretically I agree with you...there's just so little along that line that's of interest to people who don't live along the line that it's a bit of a boondoggle.

level 3
East Danforth23 points · 3 months ago

It's a boondoggle now, but if it connects directly to the future employment lands in the East Harbour/Docklands then I can see it becoming a prime condo commuting corridor. Trying to make lemonade out of lemons here.

level 3

That would be brilliant though! It would alleviate crowding in 30+ years on the Yonge line north of Bloor, which then will probably be as horrific as Bloor station is today.

level 4
East Danforth3 points · 3 months ago

Er... when was the last time you tried to take a southbound train from Sheppard or Eglinton at 8 AM? It's already jammed. We're 13 years from rush hour being at maximum possible capacity (even with full ATC, new trains, and potentially adding a mini seventh car to each trainset).

level 3

There are two large malls and a hospital on that line. Much more than the current north spur.

level 2

I don’t see what benefit that provides over a simple transfer at any point on the Sheppard Line. I know connecting the dots seems like a natural conclusion, but my understanding is it doesn’t always make operations any easier. Now if it makes sense for other reasons, by all means close the loop. But that shouldn’t be a motivating factor.

level 1
Pape Village8 points · 3 months ago

Wow. Thanks!

level 1

Please for the love of God build multiple rails parallel to each other as part of this line so trains can bypass each other if one has a breakdown or emergency and maintenance upgrades won't mean reduced service.

level 2
Willowdale21 points · 3 months ago

the only city that really has that is new York. its cost prohibitive

level 3
3 points · 3 months ago

Perhaps but the delays are becoming “time prohibitive”.

level 2

I like this idea as potential for express routes too! I would even pay a premium if every 3rd train went king to bloor for example.

level 1
Bloor West Village6 points · 3 months ago

Whatever has the best mix of ridership, cost and construction time is what they should go for, balance, instead of focusing on 1 selling point.

level 2
MarkhamOriginal Poster7 points · 3 months ago

According to one representative I spoke to, the Victoria Park alignment currently has the highest ridership projections, probably the lowest cost (don't need costly bridges like the other corridors), and easy access for buses coming from Scarborough.

However, an extension of the Sheppard line to meet the Victoria Park alignment would make things costly again.

level 3
Bloor West Village5 points · 3 months ago

Victoria Park isn't very far from Don Mills, and if extending the Sheppard Line is cost prohibitive why not just go with a VP alignment that curves to the west at the top to make an interchange at Don Mills?

level 3
3 points · 3 months ago

That's option 6?

level 4
MarkhamOriginal Poster2 points · 3 months ago

Correct

level 4

AFAICT, yes.

level 1

Option 6

level 1
8 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

5: The most interesting corridor in my opinion, north up Don Mills but veering eastwards this time towards Victoria Park. Potential station off the DVP with a connection to the Richmond Hill GO line? Interesting choice.

This would be the best otion. It collects Thorncliff park (population of a small town), and not too far from Flemingdon park...push east on VictoriaP, to give some coverage east part of north york and Scarborough, heads north to possible hookup up to a Markham centre. With this Flemingdon can be redeveloped as a major hub

this explains probably why the relief line north popped out of nowhere so quickly,...they need to pre plan on the crosstown station for possible subway connection

Major problem is they cant decide what to do with the Scarborough RT...so most of this will be futile

In the past it would of been best to run it right up Don mills, but Don Mils will already have 2 stations clode by when the Cross Town is finished...just run frequent busses or continue the express bus bus on Don Mills

level 2
3 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

But crossing the donlans twice makes it (option 5) possibly the most expensive option (and possibly more backlash from environmentalists) .

OTOH, option 6 avoids the parkway altogether and it runs through a district already marked for redevelopment. Cut-and-cover would work on 6.

level 3
North York Centre2 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

It won't be cut and cover no matter where they go, IMO. There are just too many headaches associated with it.

level 1

If this City was serious about transit, they would begin tunneling this line from the North end while the southern portion is approaching completion. Once the bore machine from the south line makes it to Pape station just continue north and meet in the middle.

This should be done even if the northern stations aren't ready for construction yet.

level 1
Vaughan4 points · 3 months ago

5 or 6 and then extend it to downtown Markham and up to Highway 7.

Highway 7 is undergoing massive development and a subway line connecting both metropolitan ends with downtown Toronto would make potential development over the next couple decades really interesting.

level 1

so which line has the most real-estate buying options available on it - that's the one our regulators will pick

level 1

They better do something that makes sense for once.

level 1

While I don’t think it’s the best option for this subway route, the idea of some higher order transit along O’Connor and Vic Park (an Eglinton Bermondsey look?) could make a lot of sense. Lots of growth potential around there.

level 1
13 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

Don’t worry - once the Ford Party is done with it we’ll have Option 1 reduced to stops at Pape and Finch.

Or, more plausibly Ford will make an election promise to use #6 because it’s the only one with stops in Scarborough

level 2

None of them go to Etobicoke so they're all useless /s

level 2
Mimico3 points · 3 months ago

You mean once the Tory show is done, we'll have a 1-stop express service to a mall (Fairview).

level 2
Agincourt2 points · 3 months ago

5 also has stops in Scarborough (well border of Scarborough anyways)

level 2
CityPlace1 point · 3 months ago

Ford's actually pro subway. This may have a shot of actually getting done.

level 3

He’s pro-subways to areas with little justification for them.

No party is anti-subway, whereas Ford is anti-anything-but-subway.

level 1
Lawrence Park2 points · 3 months ago

I mean, I go to Glendon College (Bayview & Lawrence) and having a subway line along Bayview would be amazingly convenient for me but even I realise that OPTION 4 or OPTION 5 would be the best option because they'd serve the most people and that area could use a North/South rapid transit connection to complement the Eglinton line.

level 1
Don Valley Village2 points · 3 months ago

The line must intersect with Line 4 - Sheppard. That removes 5 and 6 immediately. Although, a potential connection between Don Mills station and Victoria Park may one day arise out of a Sheppard LRT, to rely on that connection being built in the future is foolish, as who know what political winds and future financial restraints will allow for. Can you imagine a situation where this line is built along Victoria Park to Sheppard, but then a connection is never made? Sort of like how the current Sheppard Line 4 doesn't even extend to the University line? It would be a very Toronto outcome. Selection should be based on the existing, or future-funded network, no other long-term plans should be taken into consideration.

Option 1

  • This is just absurd and no doubt included just to complete the "fan arrangement" of options.

  • Bayview is low-density and incredible unlikely to be in favour of new high-density development to support the subway. You would end up with another Bloor situation, where the subway came, but the density never followed.

  • Also, it just makes sense that an eastern feeder line would stray east over time, just as the University line, the western feed line, strays west.

Anyway, I'm not going to go through them all. Option 4 is the best ok. It's just obvious. It hits alls the high-density areas, plus acts as a logical terminus for Line 4, and might even reach Seneca College at Finch, thereby connecting 10,000s of international students (all transit users) to downtown.

level 1
Parkway Forest4 points · 3 months ago

Option 1 is incredibly dumb. 4,5 look legit, extending Shepard line isn’t a bad choice. Line needs to go through Flemo, thorncliffe. Connectivity that gets people off Yonge line (like myself living at DVP/Shepard should be consideration

level 1
2 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

What amazing plans! If it were still 1995. These lines especially should be running to Markham and Richmond Hill already.

level 2

I don't get how more people aren't outraged about this. The subway system's total coverage/length should be doubled within 15 years and the government should be making this happen by any means necessary. Get the military involved if needed.

level 3

Yeah, every plan I hear about the subway is always exactly what we should have done in the 90s. Why does Toronto always need 20 years and 7 layers of committees before they can achieve anything?

level 4

It should be illegal for politicians to use or own personal vehicles to commute to work.

level 5

I have no idea what you're talking about.

level 6

I mean that they should have to rely on the TTC so they are incentivized to care about keeping it up to standard.

level 7

Maybe that would work, but so would getting rid of small town minds running big city politics. Too many people in places of power around Toronto who loved the Toronto of the 70s and 80s, also known as Slightly Bigger Buffalo. The city has changed faster than their hick ideas, and it needs city minded people to make adult decisions.

level 8

In theory I agree but I don't see how that could be done in time. Greater cultural and systemic problems like that are too wishy washy to address, and attempts to do so always end up leaving the wrong people in the same positions they were in before since there is no accountability. The city needs immediate, emergency level heavy hitting practical solutions with measurable impacts.

level 9

True, but good luck getting that from hick transplants out of satellite towns who decide to run for office and get elected back in again and again. They ate the reason everything takes a decade to decide. And then the person who finally just makes a decision is seen as being reckless, somehow. It's fucking idiotic.

level 5

Get the military involved in what? Making it illegal to own personal vehicles?

What are you on about, these are so delusional

level 6

In building it as contractors / labourers.

level 1
2 points · 3 months ago

What about relief downtown?

level 2
North York Centre12 points · 3 months ago

This will provide relief to downtown. It takes pressure off Yonge.

level 3
0 points · 3 months ago

I think going through Queen st. East then north would help more. Create three lines going North.

level 4

This is already in planning. It's the relief line, osgoode to queen, to carlow and north to bloor. Then this is the relief line north, which goes from bloor up to don mills (Or whichever of the 6 options they choose)

level 4

I see what you are saying. I worry this just adds more people from the suburbs to ridership so that must be taken into account. As more ppl want to use the ttc the busier it gets downtown as well. Especially in the pockets not relieved here.

level 4
North York Centre1 point · 3 months ago

I'd like to see that eventually too, but the west side of Line 1 is still doing fine, so it's much less of a priority.

level 2
Agincourt4 points · 3 months ago

That's already ahead in terms of planning. With the Relief Line South (which is what their calling it) planning relatively advanced to start the TPAP (Environmental Assessment). Relief Line North is in preliminary studies, with them hoping to begin the TPAP in 2020.

level 3
The Beaches1 point · 3 months ago

It's already ahead in terms of planning but once the new government gets in which they will, they will take a look at how much it costs and cancel it.

level 3

I misunderstood. I thought this was replacing the one going on queen st east. So we'd have both eventually?

level 1

option 4!

level 1
Broadview North2 points · 3 months ago

Interesting, thanks for posting this. I think 4 makes the most sense, density wise. Thorncliffe and Flemingdon could really use a stop. No matter which option they go with though, it looks like there will be a stop at Pape and Mortimer, which is fucking fantastic for me. I own a house close enough to be really close, but not close enough for them to dig near/hear the subway. Maybe by the time I retire it'll be ready, hah!

level 2

looks like there will be a stop at Pape and Mortimer

Actually looks more like Pape and Cosburn (which makes more sense since it's higher density and Mortimer is practically walking distance to existing Pape station). The dig along O'Conner will screw traffic entirely since it's the main route for most people in that area who need to DVP...that ought to be interesting.

level 1

FOLKS. It won't happen with Ford; Ford only cares about Northern Ontario; Toronto can go drop dead.

level 2

I guess you'll all have to see for yourselves.

level 1
High Park1 point · 3 months ago

D-C-I-J-Laird please

level 1

Not really sure on what corridor but for sure i think the line should terminate at Don Mills so as to make an easy transfer to Line 4 and 6? Sheppard east LRT with possible notrhern expansion later on. Also Line 4 should be extended to the university subway to keep a connected RT network. Also i wonder if here are any talks on a westward extension

level 2

Already considered this for the last 3-4 decades. Going west, there's no density, nothing there. It only looks good on a map, but it doesn't actually serve anyone (Barely). Nowhere near worth it to build a subway expansion westward. Even if the projected ridership tripled, it still wouldn't be worth it, that's how low the projected ridership is.

level 3
Steeles1 point · 3 months ago

Is there potential to density on Sheppard west of Bathurst?

level 3

Not so. With the sheppard east lrt and the line 1 extension it would allow people to commute more quickly to york U station. Anyone needing to would need to use line two to st george then a long ride up north. Being able to ride the sheppard east, then sheppard subway and then University subway all seamlessly would increase ridership exponentially and lets not forget the relief line north ending possibly at don mills. Would take stress off line 2 and 1

level 4
1 point · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

Oh yes for LRT sure. I was saying it's not worth it for a SUBWAY to be build along that route. An LRT would be great and appropriate for the ridership

Edit: I misread the original comment. An LRT is fine. I thought he was asking for a subway.

level 1

We will all be LONG dead before any part of that map actually opens....

level 1
Don Mills1 point · 3 months ago

Number 4

level 1

Alignments 5 & 6 seem to be the most interesting ones, with a preference for #5, as I think the connection to the Eglinton LRT line is more logical as another poster pointed out.

level 1
2 points · 3 months ago

I'm surprised no one is suggesting option 1 yet. it would create a second north south line and would be a true relief line for Line 1.

level 2

1 passes through the second lowest density areas (2 is the lowest density). And real estate (which needs to be purchased for tunnelling and stations) is more expensive for both 1 and 2. You'd be spending $5-6B to essentially serve the same people that already have very good access to transit.

Part of the reason the Yonge line is so stressed is people coming in from Markham and northern Scarborough - by running the line further east you'd be catching them closer to where they live, providing better transit to help those areas increase density, and completely removing people from the Yonge line and in some cases from the Y/B interchange.

level 2
Don Valley Village2 points · 3 months ago

Interesting, thanks for posting this. I think 4 makes the most sense, density wise. Thorncliffe and Flemingdon could really use a stop. No matter which option they go with though, it looks like there will be a stop at Pape and Mortimer, which is fucking fantastic for me. I own a house close enough to be really close, but not close enough for them to dig near/hear the subway. Maybe by the time I retire it'll be ready, hah!

It's double-serving the same crowd, and leaving everybody else out in the cold.

level 1

2, 3 or 4 please.

level 1
Davisville Village1 point · 3 months ago

These are ridiculous. 4 was envisioned as the corridor years ago because of the potential ridership it would serve: Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, Don Mills, Graydon Hall, and the Don Mills-Sheppard area. The other corridors don't even compare in population served.

And to those highlighting the potential benefit of 5 or 6 being an extension of the Sheppard Line: a) Doug Ford is going to extend it straight east to Scarborough Centre when he's premier (not a supporter just accepting the odds), and b) all of these except 1 could be extended north, wouldn't we want this to go all the way to Highway 7 in Vaughan, just like both branches of Line 1?

level 2

Why the hell would you want it to go to Vaughan? A random 10 km westward shift of the relief line north would make no sense? There's no point in extending both the RL North and the Yonge half of the subway northward to highway 7. One is good enough.

level 3
Davisville Village1 point · 3 months ago

Because I'd like to build a transit network that connects to as many other lines as possible. In this case, the east-west BRT line along Highway 7. This means people living in southern York Region could get to jobs in those communities I mentioned above, and vice versa. That's a huge benefit, two is better.

level 4

I think you look to look at a map and see where don mills is, and see what Vaughan is. You'd have to go in a North West line to extend the relief line North to vaughan. This is far more moronic than the SSE.

level 5
Davisville Village1 point · 3 months ago

Or, as per my point, take a rapid bus over to Leslie (Don Mills) and transfer.

level 6

First you said you want the relief line North extended into Vaughan. Now you're saying you just want the relief line North to reach the Shepard subway and other lines or bus routes will get you the rest of the way to Vaughan.

You're either moving the goalposts to avoid admitting your position is nonsensical, or you inaccurately stated your position the first time. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you simply stated your position wrong the first time.

level 7
Davisville Village1 point · 3 months ago

First you said you want the relief line North extended into Vaughan

I said southern York; that includes Richmond Hill and Markham. I'm not doing shit, you're misquoting me.

level 1
The Danforth1 point · 3 months ago

4 or 5 are best in my opinion.

level 1

Am I the only one who thinks a western downtown line should be built first? It seems like that area could build density better. This seems to go through a lot of semi-suburban areas

level 2

Yes. You’re completely missing the point of the bottle neck that happens at y+b station. You idea is valid but there are higher priorities at the moment.

level 3

oh I get that an east DRL is no.1 priority (and personally would serve me well) but im surprised to see the north DRL gain traction before West. Is the thinking that the north will also be necessary to alleviate the Y&B bottleneck?

I haven't really seen the area but I guess it makes sense that flow from north of Yonge strains Y&B just as much as people coming east on Bloor.

level 4

From my understanding the relief line to pape station won’t do much in terms of relief to y+b. The full line is needed up to Sheppard to make a impact. I think metrolinx did a study on this. Maybe someone has this data handy?

Personally i think the entire east and west line should be constructed at the same time but politics and money....

level 5

Well I definitely agree with your second point. Its odd to because if its going to be necessary (already is really) then spending the money now is almost the same as spending it 5 or 10 years from now

level 5

the relief line to pape station won’t do much in terms of relief to y+b. The full line is needed up to Sheppard to make a impact.

I don't have a link to the data but one report that the media discussed which also mentions this modelling is here. see p9.

level 4

There is an existing western relief line. That would be the entire university line. Western riders can already switch from line 2 to line 1 at spadina/st george, avoiding bloor yonge. Nothing like that exists on the east side. The west relief line *Line 1 university) already is already extended all the way north to vaughan. There is no need for a western relief line because it already exists.

level 5

Well not according to metrolinx: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20150625/2015-06-25_Yonge_Relief_Network_Study.pdf

They consider a 'U' shaped relief line but acknowledge that it doesn't alleviate overcrowding on the Yonge line.

But I guess planning ahead for the future development of the city isn't an option in Toronto. Gotta wait till the University line is well over capacity before even considering another western subway line.

level 6

I wasn't being literal. I meant that the university line already provides relief for the western side, So building a full U on the western side is redundant right now if the principal goal is relief. If you simply want to build a new east west downtown subway that heads up north to dundas west, then sure. But relief isn't needed.

But there is nothing on the east side. We need eastern relief that extends north

level 7

Well I didn't use the term relief line for that reason. I mostly just was not aware that there was so much strain coming from North of bloor, I thought the issue was mostly people transferring from bloor over to yonge.

level 8

I get on the train at finch, and I've regularly seen people not be able to get on at the very next stop, North York centre. Definitely by the time it gets to eglinton no one can get on.

The short relief line will only helps bloor yonge station from those coming from east on line 2. But the vast majority of people come from up north. We need relief from the east via the relief line short/south and the relief line north. Both are absolutely necessary. Arguably, the north relief line is needed way more than the south (although the north would be useless without the south so that's sort of an oxymoron).

It's gotta go north, the short RL provides only 3000 PPHPD in relief, while the relief Line north can provide over 20 000 PPHPD in relief, possibly even more at 30 000 PPHPD

PPHPD = people per hour per direction

level 9

Oh wow thats bad. Its a bit unfortunate that the releif line will divert east before going downtown but I suppose thats better than waiting for the next train, and the releif line north may actually have some open seats when yonge does not.

level 2

Are you thinking of King Street Condos at Liberty village?

level 3

More Queen st and Dufferin. Im not too familiar with the area but it amazes me how many houses exist west of Spadina

level 2
Don Valley Village0 points · 3 months ago

Good idea, they should build this western downtown line up University, Spadina, and hopefully one day, it could even reach York University, and hell the 407 and then Vaughan.

level 3

Oh true, its not like developing density west of Spadina should ever be a priority. Those detached homes are all so nice. /s

Or maybe we can just follow the Toronto method of developing the density and waiting for existing transit to be severely over capacity and then spend ten years considering the option.

Metrolinx seems to have a different opinion of what a western relief line would be: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20150625/2015-06-25_Yonge_Relief_Network_Study.pdf

level 1
Wallace Emerson0 points · 3 months ago

This is really cool to see but i got ask why is it that most of these transit extensions always seem to ignore the west side of the city?

level 2

Id say a lot of streetcar routes go through there like the 503-506. Also, the university side of the line still has room while the yonge st side of line 1 is already at capacity

level 3

Streetcars are completely full and there's just a big hole for anyone who lives too far to walk to bloor or university. I'm not saying it's priority but just that we need to plan way ahead and start something. I think a dufferin lrt could work for instance.

level 4

I agree, but the east side just has cray density in that area right now and even express busses like the 185 arent fixing it. The downtown relief line shouldnt end at queen and should continue on and eventually connect to a station west of spadina and bathurst

level 2

Right now the yonge side is creating more problems than the west side when it comes to overcrowding. I know everywhere needs more transit but if we tried adding the west side it balloon the size of the project delaying as it would take forever to find the funding and we would get nothing. We currently having issues securing funding for the east side. It sucks I know the whole system is over crowded and too many areas are under served / overcrowded areas. This what happens when you fall behind in infrastructure for about 30 years. Hopefully west will get some relief and the finch lrt soon.

level 2
Don Valley Village1 point · 3 months ago

This is really cool to see but i got ask why is it that most of these transit extensions always seem to ignore the west side of the city?

Yonge is the centre-line of the city. The University line is an existing western north-south transit route feeding people downtown. It was recently extended all the way to Vaughan. So the west has been the recipient of all recent transit development. There is no such eastern feeder route. So here we are.

level 1

Bayview maybe, but I'm not sure Bridle Path station sounds right along that route.

level 1

maybe Toronto can get some ideas from the UK

http://ygraph.com/graphs/londonsubway-20120826T185451-ydpht7z.gif

level 1
Malvern-1 points · 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

This will be as much as a boondoggle as the scarborouh subway. Not needed. Light rail will suffice for years.

edit: don’t believe me? This area is heavily suburban and you cannot justify building a subway because of bus ridership. That is the kind of stupidity that got the Scarborough subway built. Have some consistency in transit planning and respect expert opinion please. Just because it goes through a well to do area shouldn’t be a reason this boondoggle gets built.

Bayview is all suburban, same with Leslie, Victoria Park as well, Don Mills is probably the only alignment that is barely viable. But might only just be. It’s still entirely suburban and makes no sense for a subway. Stop it at Bloor, and build an LRT from Bloor to Sheppard. This is what the experts recommend and what was considered as part of transit city and is also part of the big move as well.

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