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Italy turns away another rescue boat carrying 200 migrants

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level 1

No other country has the right to condemn Italy at this point unless they have taken in as many unwanted migrants themselves. Italy has given above and beyond.

level 2

Europe should help each other stopping migrants from coming, help sending unwanted migrants back and help building asylum camps in Africa.

They should not fight amongst each other about the distribution of unwanted migrants while ignoring the cause of the problem which will just get bigger and bigger.

level 3

Well, if Africa is such an unwanted place to live in, maybe it should be ruled by Europe again, those resources sure as fuck would come in handy.

level 4
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level 5

But by investing there and improving their quality of life they would probably rather stay in their home countries. I think we should start with education, not general useless education, but technical education, how to be a mechanic, how to be a farmer, how to be a nurse, no point into forcing western education upon them, just teach the basics, it's better and cheaper and you can train a huge number of people to farm, invest in some second hand machinery from Europe, maybe by creating programs for European farmers to buy new equipment for cheaper turning in their old equipment, there are so many ways we can help them, it's ridiculous we just leave them to rot. The Chinese probably will have more influence over Africa because they are investing huge amounts of money into getting infrastructure there to extract mineral resources.

level 3

They r.

level 2

Over saturation of countries trying to help is only spreading the problem out. Displacement is not a solution, there is only so much that can be done without actively solving the core problem.

level 2

Just pass them on to Macron. He backs the all migrant policy for all countries.

level 3

Good thing the boats can't reach Canada, or Trudeau would be there to welcome them himself.

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level 3
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level 4

those having legitimate reasons for asylum are going to get into your country anyway

And those with illegitimate reasons will stay out, because that's how it works.

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level 2
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level 3
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level 4

We need to solve the ME problem.

The middle east isn't really the problem for Italy. The middle east feeds the passage through Greece

The problems that the Italians are facing comes from boats departing Libya and transiting sub-Saharan Africans, principally from places like Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire, Eritrea, Mali, and Somalia, and that's before you throw the Libyans into the mix.

There's also third, less popular route being used by Moroccans to enter through Spain, albeit that is better policed

This is only going to get worse in the coming decades though as things like famine, and water shortages start to become ever more frequent, and as they run into other demographic explosions such as those forecast to take hold in Nigeria in particular

level 5
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level 6

Technically you were correct, the root cause of the problem came from the middle east.

level 7

And who caused the problems in the Middle East?

level 8
18 points · 2 months ago · edited 2 months ago

The government, politicians and religion of those Middle Eastern countries?

level 9

The religion is what enables the politicians and governments.

level 10

the Christians do occasional crusdades, the Jews invade and bomb their neighbors every couple of years and the Shia and Sunni Muslims squabble - which religion is the one you are referring to?

level 9

Or maybe the foreign countries that have been forcing regime changes in the middle east for over a hundred years now.

level 10

It was a shitshow there long before any country intervened

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level 5

I know vice is not very popular right now but they've covered the morocco and Libya route very well in several short documentaries. I highly recommend watching them because you actually see whats happening on the ground regardless of bias.

Morocco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmqOlxNQABI

Italy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPelTu3iupc

level 5

Gadaffi was right hehe.

level 4
44 points · 2 months ago

Perhaps the world will think twice before "liberating" countries from evil dictators.

In some ways, those same evil dictators are Cerberus.

level 5

Except the Africans aren't coming from countries liberated by anyone, in many cases they're fleeing countries run by dictators who neglect the welfare of the country in favor of enriching themselves and their cronies.

These refugees are fleeing from countries where the political leaders are devoting resources to themselves to the detriment of the population, and the most attractive choice for the 'surplus' population (overwhelmingly made up of poor young men) is to leave.

Those evil dictators are the equivalent of a neighbor who runs a puppy mill and tosses out the puppies it doesn't sell; the rest of the neighborhood/world has to deal with the messes created by that person's self centered decisions.

The problems created by bad leaders rarely stop at their own borders, we need more intervention rather than less. The world we live in is interconnected for better or worse, and we have to strive to build a better world for everyone or see our own national efforts slowly undone by messes created by bad leaders.

level 6

Yes but those dictators give us cheap diamonds, and other cool stuff!

level 6

If interventions actually worked I would agree, but most have not worked and have made things worse. Its foolish to think more interventions will help the situation in those countries. It would just foster more anti-western sentiment.

level 7

Interventions do work, as the case of Japan, Italy and Germany attest to.

Sure there are cases where intervention failed, but that was largely because we quit halfway through. In Vietnam, our strategy was that we were going to defeat the communists while simultaneously allowing them to have northern Vietnam as a safe territory. In Korea, we accepted a ceasefire with the communists rather than keep on fighting until the Chinese forces collapsed and the Republic of Korea's development was slowed due to the persistent threat posed by another Northern invasion.

Interventions work, when we don't quit halfway through or somehow try to win a war without invading the enemy's territory.

level 6

Intervention has never worked though.

level 7

Kosovo?

Granada?

Panama?

level 4

Absolutely, but you know politicians, it's easy to shout from the ivory tower, they don't have to deal with it on a daily basis..

Just as politicians of other eu states are now shouting from their ivory tower to italy.. And the most ridiculous thing is that we are all paying them to do so

level 4

. We need to solve the ME problem.

SHouldnt have started it then, eh?

When is Blair going to be judged for crimes against the humanity?

level 5
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level 6

Tony Blair knew the WMDs were not real and still went to war.

He is evil.

level 4

in the end of the day, countries should be looking after their citizens first.

You understand what a refugee is right?

Someone becomes a refugee when they are outside their country, and their country is no longer willing to able to protect them, or is actively persecuting them. For reasons of race/ethnicity/nationality/religion/social group.

Ideally countries should protect their own people yes, but sometimes they won't or can't which is why we have the classification of refugee.

As someone else said, Italy's problem is more coming from Africa not the Middle East.

level 4

Has the U.K. really helped that many asylum seekers? I thought it was mainly just Poles? Poles would be economic migrants

level 5

The UK has seen about 20,000 to 30,000 applications for asylum every year in the last couple of years. About half of the applicants have been granted asylum or temporary protection status.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/71934/immigration-statistics10-oct-dec-2017.jpg

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/43062/immigration-statistics09-q2-2015.png

level 6

Pft, we get more than that per year and the UK is six times our size.

level 7

It was a lot more years ago and for more than a decade under the labour government that basically had open borders

level 8
Comment deleted2 months ago(0 children)

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level 6

Oh wow that’s better than I expected

level 6

Last couple of years?

Shit began in the 90’s, way longer than anyone seems to remember.

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level 3

Not really. The EU can choose to punish member states, but otherwise they really cant punish them that much I think. The EU has no level of enforcement. Member nations can choose to interpret laws however they want which is why even if article 13 is passed. Member states can still choose to ignore it.

level 4

The EU fines and can remove a states voting rights. The latter has never been used before but is threatening Poland with that currently.

level 5

poland might be getting that not just because of refusal to take in refugees tho

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level 4

That is just not true. Member states have to follow the ecjs ruling, so they have to interpret laws exactly how the ECJ does.

level 3
31 points · 2 months ago

What if a boat with 200 terrorist arrives at your port saying their country is a war zone.(because they keep bombing and beheading people.) And you have to take them in and give them money and a home for free. Just so they can carry out some attacks they planned before crossing the sea.

This is a fucking ridiculous example. When has that ever happened?

And all countries within the EU (and elsewhere) already have the right to refuse anyone they think is a terrorist.

I read that Germany has Osama bin ladens old bodyguard shacked up and on welfare.

There's a guy in Germany who had allegations against him that he served Osama as a bodyguard for a few months. He denies those allegations. Even still he has to report weekly to the police station.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43878237

level 4

This is a fucking ridiculous example.

Another day, another alt-right horde descending on a thread like locusts, vomiting out the most insane, counterfactual, fake news, anti-E.U. horse shit and rewarded for it with an absolutely ludicrous amount of upvotes.

level 5

Substitute the number 4 for 200 and you have exactly what happened in the Stade de France attack.

This trend of shoving every problem into either a 'right' or 'left' category and dismissing whichever it is you don't personally agree with is getting really old.

level 5

counterfactual

Outside of academia we just call them lies.

But I don't disagree with you.

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level 3

Maybe they should have thought about that before signing over their national sovereignty to a bunch of foreign bureaucrats.

level 3

The lack of sovereignty in the EU is horrendous.

More fucking nonsense from non Europeans who don't have a clue.

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level 3
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level 3

Way to stereotype man

level 3

You don't have idea how they live. They don't get home or money, they are kept in refuge camp. SOME get some poker money, less than 100€ for month. You won't be even able to buy a good water gun with those.

level 3
-1 points · 2 months ago

Wrong. You can't compare and assume that those 200 migrants are terrorists. Fallacious argument.

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level 2

Yes, Italy can't take this anymore. There is a reason they deny the boat to land.

level 2

Some could argue that this creates incentives which are even harmful, because people who would otherwise be able to play a vital role in improving the situation in their own countries, are now given an incentive to move to Europe to take their chances there instead. And because they know that they will be taken care of by the social nets that are present there, they are even more motivated to do so.

As should be clear by now, most of these refugees aren't women or children, but men. Men who could otherwise play their part in fixing the problems at home. But when everyone only has this desire to reach the promised land of Europe, this clearly won't happen.

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level 4
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level 1
346 points · 2 months ago

Good for Italy. Can’t let themselves be guilted into taking people they don’t want

level 2
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level 3
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level 4
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level 5
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level 5
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level 6
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level 1

Italian Interior Minister Matteo Salvini has indicated that the ship may not dock in Italy and that Malta should take it in. Last week, he refused to allow the Aquarius, a ship that picked up hundreds of people, to dock. It eventually went to Spain.

So is Salvini suggesting Malta because Malta is complaining that Italy wont allow the boat in?

Also I know people were complaining about the Aquarius not being allowed to dock in Italy. But all I really heard was that it would then be going to Spain. Why werent other Southern European nations either volunteering, or getting complaints for not allowing the boat to dock? Not saying they should or shouldn't but didn't the Aquarius have to sail past other countries like France to go from Italy to Spain?

level 2

The biggest question of all is why France didn't allow it to port considering it was a French NGO that was running the Aquarius. The gall of the french government in attempting to claim the moral high ground on Italy in that debacle while simultaneously denying the ship access to french ports is mind blowing. And Macron doubled down on it today saying Italy should be punished for denying ships port. If I was Salvini I would direct all maritime traffic from Libya strait to Marseille. The conversation would be over in a week and French borders would be closed.

level 3

I posted something similar in regards to a post about the first boat Italy refused.

level 3
12 points · 2 months ago · edited 2 months ago

Tinfoil hat time. Right now Italy has a right wing government that isn't aligned with the EU right now. France might be playing politics sending the boat to Italy instead of France.

level 4

What would be the point of that?

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level 4

The migrant problem is what is fueling the popularity of these right wing movements. The EU leadership is digging its own grave.

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level 2

True. Why not France. They welcome the refugees so they should take them all. They can build more bulletproof glass around their tourist attractions.

level 3

Our elite welcomes them, but we'd be better without them. Send them back to where they come from

level 4

Welcoming them out of failed policy guilt that triggered problems elsewhere is more like it.

These problems are getting worse and climate change is driving people out of the hot nations.

level 2
2 points · 2 months ago

didn't the Aquarius have to sail past other countries like France to go from Italy to Spain?

No?
Have you not seen a map of Europe?

Most of those ships are coming from Tunisia and Libya to the very south of Italy.
From there going to Spain is faster and safer than going to France ( though not by a huge amount, Greece would be even closer though ).

level 3

But I wasn't asking about all the ships leaving. I was asking about the Aquarius which rescued people out of the Mediterranean near Italy. Marseille, Monoco, and Barcelona arent as far west of Sicily or Malta, as Valencia is. Yes they are farther north. But according to accounts Ive seen they sailed past Corsica on their way to Valencia. Which according to maps put them as far north as Barcelona meaning they had to sail farther west and back to the south to get to Valencia.

Not to mention, if they did go between Sardenia and Corsica, Marseille and Monoco look like they would have been closer than Barcelona or Valencia on maps at least at that point.

level 4

I have to say I know nothing about Aquarius.

It is possible there simply aren't suitable facilities for handling immigrants in those other places, I guess, since they are more out of the way for most immigrant ships.

level 2

We could but then Salvini would just pull the same stunt with another boat. We have lots of vacancies for refugees, the camps are slow to send them, maybe he could actually implement some policies instead of going the media rounds.

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level 1
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level 2
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level 3
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level 1

I fully agree with most of the comments here. Italy has done quite a lot for immigrants already with little to no help from other European countries. This issue is going on for several years already. Europe just doesnt seem te care enough. If we did care more, a solution would have been provided years ago. Sad to know that probably hundreds more have to die before we really start to work together on proper immigration policy in all European countries.

level 2

This issue is going on for several years already. Europe just doesnt seem te care enough.

You can argue over the semantics of "care enough", but Europe has extensive overseas aid budgets (as do member states independently) which they're trying to use to create better economic conditions in the countries of origin. It isn't really working though (which is hardly surprising). These countries are never going to achieve the same level of economic strength that Europe has taken centuries to build up in the time scale required

level 3

It doesn't have to take centuries for a country to develop, like the South Korean case proves.
Yet I still don't see the context of Africa as the right one for that to happen.

level 4
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level 5

Wtf is this shit

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level 3
3 points · 2 months ago · edited 2 months ago

The West, disguised as aid, has actually been in economical war against African nations since the 60s. Europe and the USA have been economically destroying them. We're forcing them to do stuff we would never accept in our countries.

  • You think they wanted our second hand clothing, bikes or shoes? They were forced to accept it and it destroyed their industries (for example, Kenya had half a million people working in the textile industry producing typical Kenyan clothing in 1980, by 1990 they were only 20'000; and the Kenyan population started looking like homeless people).

  • What about cheap subsidized Western food? Nope again, African countries don't want it. But we force them to take it. Thus aborting their green revolution and agribusinesses. They virtually have no agribusinesses because of that. 70% of Africans still work in subsistence farming (small family farms on small plots of land) simply because African food is too expensive compared to "free" food.

  • What about schools, education, job training, roads and other infrastructures, etc.? Since the 1980s the IMF and the World Bank, under the threats of military interventions, made sure that African nations stop investing in those programs, privatize and sell them off to foreign corporations. Look it up it's called structural adjustment program aka "austerity on steroids". It's catastrophic.

If you want to know more, start with "Dead Aid" by Dambisa Moyo

edit: wording

level 4

Good post. One of the arguments made for Brexit is that once we left the EU, Britain would be free to do a trade deal with Kenya and the rest. It would be win-win as we'd be buying their agricultural produce (stuff we can't produce ourselves) and they'd be able to get their agricultural industry going because they'd have a real customer.

level 4
4 points · 2 months ago

It is almost like self - reliance is better than handouts. I am against this type of aid, except perhaps after a natural disaster.

level 5

Indeed. Aid after a natural disaster is actually called humanitarian aid. And it's a very short term, emergency intervention. It's conceived as a buffer so that the local government can have time to implement long term intervention.

It is almost like self - reliance is better than handouts

In the West, nobody's disputing that fact. Every country knows that their industries should be protected. But also, governments and economists perfectly know how to weaken foreign countries.

Western corporations and private interest groups have always disguised their wars on Africans, and other regions of the world. It's very sad but perfectly normal, otherwise Western population and their powerful institutions would never agree to the destruction and exploitation of foreign people.

Here are some of them:

  • "Christianization to save their souls". This way they had the powerful support of the Church, the population, and the government. Armies of missionaries were dispatched in the name of kings and queens. Those kings and queens represent God on earth, so you have to obey their laws or else real armies were dispatched to crush you.

  • with "civilizing them so they can progress", and also the red scare. You were crushed if you were not a "democracy".

  • since the 70s, it's all about long-term aid in Africa. But nobody's telling how aid is being used to control local governments and bend them to the will of their donors. Few are talking about how chronic aid has actually destroyed Africa. And the few countries that refuse aid, end up in big trouble (assassinations, sanctions, etc.)

We don't even need to talk about self-reliance. Just look at the basic rules of capitalism and economic. They all say you should avoid long term aid, and instead protect your key industries and markets until they're strong enough to compete internationally.

That's what Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China and Singapore did.

level 6
2 points · 2 months ago

I don't know enough about the history of Africa, I have little knowledge about it. The saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" may apply here. I don't think everyone is intending harm. I think the same issue applies here in the US regarding handouts as they end up crushing self-reliance. Temporary help is one thing, but long term help can perpetuate generational poverty, though education plays a role as well.

Either way, I think I will try and find some books on Africa.

level 7

That's a good point. Thanks.

level 2

Europe just doesnt seem te care enough.

Why is it Europe's responsibility?

level 3

The EU dumps excess agricultural products into Africa whilst also imposing large tarrifs on processed foods.

So drives down the price farmers can charge on raw produce whilst making it unprofitable to sell processed products like coffee and chocolate.

level 4

Don't give them food? You're evil, causing them to die. Give them food? Still evil. Free trade? You're evil, causing them to die. Lack of free trade? Still evil.

level 2
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2 points · 2 months ago

Tell me WHY ? Why must Italy's problem be my problem? are we one country no we are not we are in a union nothing more that does not mean all your problems are mine. We already did enough and most migrants run to Northern Europe as fast as they can.

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level 1

ITaly is Europe but Europe don’t regulate migrants travel . France blocks at Ventimiglia board , Austria at Brenner board . Migrants are travelling into Europe i think they Will move out from ITaly . Greece and ITaly need help into the Mediteranean sea with a regulation different from the existent one , Dublin contract if I ‘m not wrong .

level 2

The BIG problem is those accords consider only the "refugees", and in Italy the refugees are only 10% of the immigrants arriving from the sea... in this moment the illegal immigrants are between 500/700k.

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level 1
15 points · 2 months ago · edited 2 months ago

The European establishment has a world view that does not permit it to say what is patently obvious to politicians in the Mediterranean and Balkan countries, which is that their populations have had enough of migration. Perhaps they should not feel this, but they do and they are selecting governments who voice this opinion.

This leads to the current unfortunate situation. "Europe" gives out signals that it will accept migrants and so they come, often at great cost and personal privation. The result exacerbates internal political tensions in Europe itself. Plainly, though, Europe cannot take everyone who want to come to it any more than can America or Singapore. Equaly plainly, there are many horrible situations in the world that people want to flee. Those two facts do not admit to any comfortable situation, but the wealthy nations need to come to a new consensus on how to manage the situation.

level 2

The more people come, the more right wing votes will build, more right wing governments will pop up.

The “left” in general has to respond with a reasonable solution, or they will lose the entire EU to the right.

And we know what that looks like.

level 1
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level 1

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 67%. (I'm a bot)


A ship carrying more than 200 migrants is being blocked from entering Italian waters, the second time in two weeks that a new government in Rome has turned away a vessel carrying people rescued from drowning in the Mediterranean.

German rescue organisation Sea-Eye responded to the news on its Twitter feed, saying: "220 people die within three days and Matteo Salvini is talking about 'human flesh.' #horrific."

The new Italian government has intensified existing Italian complaints that the country is taking in more than its fair share of refugees thanks to the number of people fleeing Africa by boat in recent months, many of them heading to Italy, one of the closest points in Europe to their starting point in Libya.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Italian#1 people#2 Salvini#3 new#4 more#5

level 1
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level 1

I don't know if anyone can inform me on the matter since it's not mentioned in the article. What happens to the migrants when they are "taken in" by Italy? Are they put in some kind of temporary camps while they can be processed? And what happens then? Are officials trying to send them back to their countries of origin?

level 1

good it's not up to italy to take them on, it's up to these countries to resolve their issues, with the help one of the biggest world evils, the usa because they are a primary causation in many situations

level 1

This is such a controversial issue. Sure you don't want to be responsible for these people without adequate support, but at the same time, can you imagine being one of the sailors having to turn them away?!

level 2

No, but I could imagine wanting to take them safely back to Northern Africa and then having numerous international policies stand in the way

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