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31
Posted by
1.097302
3 days ago
Stickied postModerator of r/asoiaf

Welcome to the Weekly Q & A! Feel free to ask any questions you may have about the world of ASOIAF. No need to be bashful. Book and show questions are welcome; please say in your question if you would prefer to focus on the BOOKS, the SHOW, or BOTH. And if you think you've got an answer to someone's question, feel free to lend them a hand!

10
Posted by
1.097302
1 day ago
Stickied postModerator of r/asoiaf

Please remember:

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Submissions breaking the rules will be removed.

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  • /r/ImaginaryWesteros — Fantasy artwork inspired by the book series "A Song Of Ice And Fire" and the television show "A Game Of Thrones"
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228

This is mine, from ASOS. More of a rant tbh.

Jamie grabbed the boy with his good hand and yanked him around. “I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, as long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.”

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34

I was reading a list of Robert's bastard children on the wiki and this thought occured to me. I don't recall hearing anything about specifics, other than that one blonde Hill (? I can't remember if it was Hill, Flowers or Water) guy who claimed he was a Lannister Bastard at the wall.

63

In the books, Robb has Edmure protect the Riverlands. Robb expects Edmure's host to falter against Tywin Lannister, thus causing Tywin to be drawn further into the West, and therefore further away from Kings Landing. Essentially, the plan is to draw Tywin further away from the capital so that Stannis can finally take Kings Landing and put Joffery, Cersei, Tommen, Tyrion, Varys, etc, all to the sword - virtually breaking Lannister power. From here, Robb could sue for peace with Stannis Baratheon, and mop up the remaining Lannister forces.

This would lead to a drastically different outcome, to what we see later develop - but it never procures because Edmure beats off Tywin Lannister, permitting him enough time to retreat back to Kings Landing and defeat Stannis.

Here is my issue;

This only happens because Edmure isn't told what Robb Stark's plan was. Robb just presumes Edmure won't hold back Tywin. It's a massive act of short-sightedness, that leaves the reader questioning the effectiveness of Robb as a leader - it's just unsatisfying and doesn't make sense.

How I think it should have played out;

Martin should have written Edmure to be fully cognisant of the plan (Robb tells him why he's doing what he's doing) but tries to beat the Lannister forces anyway. He does this because failure to do so would've meant Tywin massacring thousands of people in the Riverlands, the people Edmure swore to protect. So the blunder still occurs, but Edumure prioritises his duty to protect his people, over that of following through with Robb's plan. I think this would've worked extra well if Martin wrote Edmure to be terribly conflicted about the decision, like he deliberates significantly hard, but wagers that Robb's plan will falter anyway, and that his duty to protect his people and save them from horrible deaths trumps some vague hope of victory.

I think this would've provided a more satisfying outplay of events.

Thoughts?

776

It occurred to me this morning that I can’t recall a single example of a lord’s hall being decorated with paintings. Portraits, landscapes, nothing. In fact, the only example of a drawing or painting I can think of is Renly’s locket portrait of Margery.

Can anyone think of examples I am forgetting?

Anyone have any theories as to why these are missing?

776
18

Lord Tywin went on. "Oberyn Martell might suit, but the Tyrells would take that very ill. So we must look to the sons. I assume you do not object to wedding a man younger than yourself?"

"I object to wedding any—"

"I have considered the Redwyne twins, Theon Greyjoy, Quentyn Martell, and a number of others. But our alliance with Highgarden was the sword that broke Stannis. It should be tempered and made stronger. Ser Loras has taken the white and Ser Garlan is wed to one of the Fossoways, but there remains the eldest son, the boy they scheme to wed to Sansa Stark."

Funny thoughts. How would these relationships pan out.

18
5

Hi there!

Have you ever noticed the irony of the small council titles of the initial small council under Robert Baratheon?

Petyr Baelish (Master of Coin) - Puts the realm in debt to the Iron Bank of Braavos and the Lannisters (although this is partly due to Robert being a spendthrift), while it is his job to keep the royal finances in good order.

Varys (Master of Whisperers) - Conspires with Illyrio Mopatis against the reigning Baratheon dynasty, while it is his job to expose conspiracies to the king.

Renly Baratheon (Master of Laws) - Follows a "might makes right" approach and betrays his brother's birthright, with dynastical inheritance being one of the oldest laws still upheld in Westeros. Suggests to Ned Stark to take hold of Joffrey by force of arms.

Stannis Baratheon (Master of Ships) - His fleet gets destroyed in its entirety at the Blackwater - although it should be noted here that he achieved a prior naval victory against the Greyjoys - the irony is still present.

Barristan Selmy (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) - Although this is mostly Robert's fault, he fails to protect his king during the boar hunt, this being the reason for his dismissal.

Did anyone else initially see the irony of their respective titles?

5
comment
8

So I am re-reading the whole series again. Right now I'm on ACoK and i want to know if there are some important stuff hidden in seemingly normal words. Things that resulted to fan theories and stuff like that. Interesting things I should be looking for.

And can anyone please explain to me the theory of Northern Lords Conspiracy in simple words. Thanks!

12

Robert knows Jaime fathered his wife's children. Jaime knows Robert hit his sister.

1) Horse.

2) Foot.

2
Posted by
I should love to try my lance on you.
1 hour ago

There is a thematic connection between houses Stark and Blackwood when it comes to royal houses submitting to an overlord and thus becoming vassal lords.

AWOIAF - The North: The Kings of Winter

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints [...] and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter.

The Blackwoods either lived as vassals to the Starks for a while before being driven out of the North, or they were exiled as a result of the Stark conquest of the wolfswood. In any case, the Blackwoods turned up in Blackwood Vale in the Riverlands and have ruled both as sovereign kings as well as vassal lords over the centuries.Fast forward to Aegon's conquest.

AWOIAF - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

When Torrhen Stark reached the banks of the Trident, he found a host half again the size of his own awaiting him south of the river. Riverlords, westermen, stormlanders, men of the Reach...all had come. And above their camp Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar prowled the sky in ever-widening circles.

At this point, House Hoare has died out and Harrenhal has been humbled. The Field of Fire worfed two of the most powerful kingdoms in Westeros. It says in AWOIAF that Torrhen received advice from his bannermen and others, and I think house Blackwood potentially had some say in this council. I believe Torrhen was on Blackwood lands and potentially in Raventree Hall when he made his decision. Here is my reasoning: AWOIAF tells us Torrhen crossed the Trident to bend the knee to Aegon. I think the author more specifically means the Red Fork, as Jaime's first chapter in ASOS features him, Brienne, and Cleos sailing down the Red Fork from Riverrun, and eventually into Bracken land;

ASOS - Jaime I

The Red Fork was wide and slow [...]

Cleos squinted downriver. “Smoke.”

A thin grey finger crooked them on. It was rising from the south bank several miles on, twisting and curling. Below, Jaime made out the smouldering remains of a large building, and a live oak full of dead women.

[...]

“The girls pleasured some of my lord father’s soldiers, it would seem [...] “This is Bracken land. Lord Jonos might have ordered them killed. My father burned his castle, I fear he loves us not.”

ASOS - Jaime II

Jaime was the first to spy the inn. The main building hugged the south shore where the river bent, its long low wings outstretched along the water as if to embrace travelers sailing downstream.

[...]

At the end of the dock, a flaking shingle swung from an iron post, painted with the likeness of a king upon his knees, his hands pressed together in the gesture of fealty. Jaime took one look and laughed aloud. “We could not have found a better inn.”

“Is this some special place?” the wench asked, suspicious.

Ser Cleos answered. “This is the Inn of the Kneeling Man, my lady. It stands upon the very spot where the last King in the North knelt before Aegon the Conqueror to offer his submission. That’s him on the sign, I suppose.”

We don't know for sure if Jaime II also takes place along house Bracken's lands south of the Red Fork, but if it does, that means that the Inn of the Kneeling Man is on Bracken land. If Torrhen Stark crossed the Red Fork to where the inn now stands, he might have come from Blackwood land, seeing as these houses have feuded over land and religion for ages. Another reason for why I think Torrhen knelt on Bracken land is that we know that much of the land south of the Red Fork is flat and low compared to the north bank. Such lands would probably be suitable for horse breeding, something house Bracken has been involved in as their arms reflect. Aegon would probably wait for Torrhen on an open field to make an encore of the Field of Fire should Torrhen prove senseless.

What did Lord or Lady Blackwood, as erstwhile vassals of house Hoare say to Torrhen? Did they reference their own experiences of submitting a crown to a liege? Would anyone present note the irony of house Stark, which possibly defeated house Blackwood using siknchanging/old gods magic now being faced with a foe possessed with dragons and connections to Valyrian magic?Did Torrhen pray to the colossal weirwood in Raventree's godswood? Did he come to his conclusion in the hour of the wolf, at which point the branches of the tree would be covered with thousands of ravens? Did a prophecy about house Targaryen and the Long Night come up? What wisdom did the Old Gods grant this king?

Maybe the meeting of Targaryen, Stark and Blackwood established a lasting connection between the houses during the reigns of the dragons, as their houses have intermarried several times after the conquest. Daenerys' paternal and maternal great-grandmother was a Blackwood, which would be Jon's (assuming R+L=J) paternal great-great-grandmother. Through his Stark parentage, house Blackwood is already represented in his maternal great-great-great grandmother, thus giving him two doses of Blackwood in addition to his Stark and Targaryen blood. Then again house Dayne and Royce are in the mix of this genealogy. We don't have much to speculate on besides the possible connection I've tried to make a case for. What do you think? Is there any more we can take from this?

TL;DR: Torrhen Stark supposedly knelt at the Inn of the Kneeling Man, which possibly is located on Bracken land south of the Red Fork. If Torrhen crossed the Trident to bend the knee, he could possibly have come from Blackwood land, meaning that he most likely got advice from the lord/lady of Raventree, and may even have prayed and received visions in their godswood and established a connection between Targaryens, Starks, and Blackwoods.

162

Introduction

When fans of A Song of Ice and Fire attempt to compare the endstates of characters who died in Game of Thrones but are still alive by the end of A Dance with Dragons, it gets confusing. There are certain points where the show and what George RR Martin plans for his future books look to intersect, but there are other places where the outcomes of plot points and the fates of characters look to be quite different in A Song of Ice and Fire. As George RR Martin put it back in 2016:

Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. - GRRM, notablog, “Last Year: WINDS OF WINTER”, 1/2/2016

One character’s fate looks to be different in the books, or so I think. That character is Stannis Baratheon. In Game of Thrones, Stannis was defeated by Ramsay Bolton and later killed by Brienne of Tarth. But will Stannis face the same end in A Song of Ice and Fire.

No. Or, at least probably not.

It’s my view that the version of Stannis’ death we saw in Season 5 of Game of Thrones won’t be replicated in The Winds of Winter. In fact, I believe that Stannis will not only survive the Battle of Ice but will go on to win against the Boltons. And I don't just say that as a fan of Stannis. I believe that GRRM has a different endstate for Stannis planned -- one that will mirror the narrative origin story of the Iron King.


Stannis Baratheon: Origins

Lord Stannis and a small garrison had held the castle for close to a year, against the great host of the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne. (ACOK, Prologue)

When I say the narrative origin story of Stannis, I don't mean his birth, his early youth, the proudwing story or the other facets of his upbringing. I mean the narrative origin story -- where Stannis, at a mere 18 years of age, held Storm's End against a Tyrell siege for nearly a year.

While Stannis is mentioned from time to time early in AGOT, it's in Ned Stark's sixth chapter that Stannis' story begins truly being told:

Ned found it hard to imagine what could frighten Stannis Baratheon, who had once held Storm's End through a year of siege, surviving on rats and boot leather while the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls. (AGOT, Eddard VI)

Stannis' tenacity in holding the castle - holding the castle to the near bitter end, subsisting on rat and boot leather - begins contouring the man on the margins of the AGOT story. When Stannis arrives onto center stage in A Clash of Kings, the story of Stannis' defense of Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion is told repeatedly. Stannis himself tells the story:

"I held Storm's End for him, watching good men starve while Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne feasted within sight of my walls." (ACOK, Prologue)

And then later, Stannis' old enemies from the rebellion tell the same story:

"And if he yields?" Lord Tarly asked.

"Yields?" Lord Rowan laughed. "When Mace Tyrell laid siege to Storm's End, Stannis ate rats rather than open his gates." (ACOK, Catelyn IV)

Even Lord Tywin Lannister, likely recalling Stannis' actions at Storm's End, says:

"This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some." (ASOS, Jaime IX)

In ADWD, after Stannis has journeyed north, defeated the Wildlings at the Wall and the Ironborn at Deepwood Motte, Asha Greyjoy observes the same motif of Stannis never surrendering, never giving up and cites his defense of Storm's End as part of the litany of places where the Iron King never gave up:

Whatever doubts his lords might nurse, the common men seemed to have faith in their king. Stannis had smashed Mance Rayder's wildlings at the Wall and cleaned Asha and her ironborn out of Deepwood Motte; he was Robert's brother, victor in a famous sea battle off Fair Isle, the man who had held Storm's End all through Robert's Rebellion. And he bore a hero's sword, the enchanted blade Lightbringer, whose glow lit up the night. (ADWD, The King's Prize)

Asha re-emphasizes this point with her description of Stannis, thinking of his iron will and his refusal to back down despite overwhelming and seemingly insurmountable odds:

The king stood outside his tent, staring into the nightfire. What does he see there? Victory? Doom? The face of his red and hungry god? His eyes were sunk in deep pits, his close-cropped beard no more than a shadow across his hollow cheeks and bony jawbone. Yet there was power in his stare, an iron ferocity that told Asha this man would never, ever turn back from his course. (ADWD, The King's Prize)

All of these mentions of Stannis never backing down, never surrendering - all deriving from his narrative origin story at Storm's End - mean something. And it's my belief that constant emphasis on Stannis' defense of Storm's End has everything to do with his endgame, but I'm getting a little ahead of myself.


Stannis Won’t Die at the Battle of Ice

So, let's pick up with where GRRM left Stannis at the end of ADWD. Snowed in at a small Crofter's Village three days ride from Winterfell, Stannis and his war for the Iron Throne looks to be at an end. Meanwhile, Roose Bolton has dispatched the Freys and Manderlys to ride Stannis and his beleaguered host down. It all looks hopeless, and thus Game of Thrones' depiction of Stannis' death is likely an accurate one, right?

Well, no. There are plot reasons and significant foreshadowing that demonstrate that Stannis has a plan to defeat his enemies riding for him, but those aren't the only reasons I believe Stannis survives the battles.

Instead, and this is important, I don’t think that Stannis has fulfilled his narrative purpose. That narrative purpose being, well, to burn Shireen Baratheon (I'll get to that). Beyond that, there are two extra-book reasons why I think Stannis won’t die in his upcoming battle with the Boltons/Freys in The Winds of Winter. They are:

  1. David Benioff confirmed that Stannis Baratheon would burn Shireen. In the books, Shireen is still at Castle Black by the end of ADWD while Stannis is three days' ride from Winterfell with the Freys approaching him in battle. So, it seems unlikely that Stannis will die in the Battle of Ice in TWOW.
  2. George explicitly stated in the above quote that “King Stannis is dead in the show, alive in the books” and reinforced that point in a notablog comment by saying that Stannis is “undoubtedly alive” in the books.

Given these points, we're left with an outstanding question: if Stannis isn't going to die in the Battle of Ice, what's his fate going to be in the books? Here's my broadstrokes outline for what will occur:

  1. Stannis defeats the Freys at the battle and is aided by the Manderlys who slaughter the Freys retreating from the battle.
  2. Stannis moves his army from the Crofters' Village and positions them outside of Winterfell.
  3. Some of Stannis' army dons Karstark surcoats, they accompany the Manderlys to the Winterfell gates and Roose/Ramsay Bolton, though suspicious, lets them in or face a revolt inside Winterfell from the non-Bolton northmen.
  4. Wham-bam, the Fake-Karstarks, Manderlys, Umbers and other northmen betray the Boltons and open the gates to the rest of Stannis army.
  5. Stannis feeds Ramsay to his dogs and claims ownership of Winterfell

I recognize that this is papering over the intricacies of the plot, and I acknowledge it may not play out in the exact way I outline. But I think the endstate of Stannis war in the North will be that Stannis will hold Winterfell -- an ancient fortress, a place of defense, a spot that can withstand the onslaught of winter.

But complications are coming for Stannis.


The Post-Bolton North

A post-Bolton North might seem a welcome respite from the horrors of Bolton rule that we read about in ADWD, but that tension will likely resume as soon as the Starks begin returning to the North. We've got Sansa and Littlefinger angling to return to Winterfell, Robb's will naming Jon as his heir in play, Rickon potentially coming back with an army of cannibal unicorn riders (The Skagosi) and R'hllor knows what Bran's role in all of this will be.

In the middle of all that is Stannis. One can imagine a scenario where Stannis has cleaned Winterfell of the Boltons and Freys, and then he'll be abandoned by his northern allies as they choose a Stark to back.

In the same vein, I don't see a scenario where Stannis will abandon Winterfell either. He finally has a defensible spot -- one that holds strategic and cultural value. I think Stannis will keep his hold on Winterfell for a time, and that may prove initially fortuitous as winter and the Wall falls to the Others.


Echoes of the Past

Back in A Feast for Crows, GRRM (via Rodrik the Reader) said:

"History is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again." (AFFC, The Kraken's Daughter)

Let's circle back to Stannis: Origins. In Stannis' origin story, I think we're meant to see the shape of things to come for Stannis' arc. Making the more firm assumption that Stannis survives the Battle of Ice, going a little out on a limb that he not only survives the battle but is ultimately victorious against the Freys and then going out a bit even more on a limb and supposing that he takes Winterfell (again, feel free to hold my feet to the fire on the specifics, I don't mind), what is the narrative point of him holding Winterfell?

As Rodrik would tell us, what's happened before will happen again. And I think GRRM will be holding a mirror in the narrative that calls readers' attention to Stannis' origin story.


Winter Fell

"Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." (AGOT, Bran IV)

Alright, let me lay my cards on the table: I think that the Siege of Storm's End intends to set the foundation for Stannis' last stand as he comes under siege by the Others at the place where Winter Fell and where winter will fall again come the end of TWOW and into A Dream of Spring.

And if Stannis comes under siege again, I don't imagine that he'll surrender the castle to the Others. Stannis knows that the Others are the true enemy as he said back in ASOS:

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." (ASOS, Samwell V)

But withstanding siege by the Others and undead will seem similar to what he experienced as an 18 year old kid. But it may be even worse than subsisting on leather and rats. By the end of ADWD, Stannis' army is down to eating horses and, uh, dead humans. Some of Stannis' men are so hungry that they resort to cannibalism to survive.

And while they all hope that taking Winterfell will refresh their supplies, things aren't great within the castle either:

He might prefer to cut the castle off from the outside world and starve out its defenders. Winterfell's storerooms and cellar vaults were empty. A long supply train had come with Bolton and his friends of Frey up through the Neck, Lady Dustin had brought food and fodder from Barrowton, and Lord Manderly had arrived well provisioned from White Harbor … but the host was large. With so many mouths to feed, their stores could not last for long. Lord Stannis and his men will be just as hungry, though. (ADWD, The Turncloak)

Starving, besieged by the undead and the Others and unwilling to ever give up, what will Stannis do? I think Tywin Lannister all-but-tells-us what Stannis would do:

"This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some." (ASOS, Jaime IX)

The bitter end and then some may look like a starving, dying army inside the walls of Winterfell defending the castle past reason, past hope. They may eat through all the rats, all the horses, all the shoe leather in Winterfell. And then what? What desperate measures might Stannis attempt to save millions from the dark?


Conclusion: The Burning Crown

Season 5 of Game of Thrones gave us the answer to the question of the desperate measures Stannis would undertake: Stannis will burn Shireen. In the show, he burned Shireen to calm the weather and give his army the chance to win at Winterfell. In the books, I think Stannis will burn Shireen as a last resort to win the War for the Dawn. Perhaps, Stannis will burn Shireen in a blood magic ritual to bring dragons to life from dragon eggs that Vermax allegedly laid in the Winterfell crypts:

We can dismiss Mushroom's claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons. As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. (TWOIAF, The North: Winterfell)

Or perhaps it will be for some other plot reason. Ultimately, GRRM built significant foundation for Stannis' decision to burn Shireen back in ACOK but most significantly in ASOS:

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice." (ASOS, Davos VI)

Burning Shireen as a last desperate gambit while besieged in Winterfell looks part of a fitting conclusion for Stannis. Whether the sacrifice of Shireen will work or not (I don't think it will), Stannis won't make it out of Winterfell alive -- something I'll be talking about next week in a NotACast patreon episode.

And so, I think GRRM has envisioned the endgame of Stannis Baratheon as a mirror of his origin story. His arc began under siege at Storm's End, and I believe it will end under siege at Winterfell. Winter nearly came for Stannis at the Siege of Storm's End. Winter will come at last for Stannis at the Siege of Winterfell.

162
3

Top Tier

1) House Tyrell

The Tyrell have 100000 men, they're the second richest House in Westeros and have one of the three greatest fleets in Westeros. They have the second largest city.

2) House Baratheon

The Baratheons have 50000 men and one of the 3 greatest Fleets in Westeros. They have the largest city.

3) House Lannister

The Lannisters are the richest House and have 60000 men and a medium sized Fleet. They have the third largest city.

Mid Tier

4) House Arryn

The Arryns have 50000 men and a medium sized Fleet. They have the second smallest city.

5) House Stark

The Starks have 50000 men and no Fleet. They have the smallest city.

6) House Tully

The Starks have 50000 men and no Fleet.

Low Tier

7) House Martell

The Martells have 25000 men, no cities and no Fleet.

8) House Greyjoy

The Greyjoys have 25000 men, no cities and the greatest Fleet in Westeros although they are useless on land.

1

I just noticed this confusing bit in the final Theon chapter. As far as everyone in Winterfell knows, Stannis is right outside. Mance soothes Theon by telling him that, judging by the sound of the horns, Stannis is close by and they’ll reach him before being caught.

But when Bolton sends out the Freys and Manderlys, he announces that Stannis is 3 days away, snowbound and starving.

It seems to me that this should have had more of an effect on everything that followed. Everyone inside should now be wondering just who is outside if not Stannis. Mance and Theon should be reconsidering their plan immediately, knowing now how far there is to go, but instead they all jump to action.

I think it’s clear that Crowfood’s unexplained presence points to a collaboration with Mance, so perhaps Mance knew more than he was letting on, but it still makes little sense.

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

1

Though I think 98% of it would be filled with ‘kill’ and ‘revenge’.

43

What are some things that GRRM has set up in the narrative you expect to see payoff for in the later books?

My personal favourite is the huge amounts of extremely volatile and flammable wildfire under King's Landing. I see that going further than just the Blackwater or Cersei's Tower of the Hand moment. And obviously Sam's horn.

What do you think?

Edit: I know I missed the 'h'. Got overexcited at getting the spoiler tag right!

14

Did anyone else feel sad reading that chapter where Jon says his farewell to Sam and Gilly? Just like with Robb, the snow was melting in his hair and that was the last time they ever saw each other.

14
7
Posted by
This is how Roose can still win
17 hours ago

I recently noticed that whenever i think about Jon Arryn, i think "old man who smells like cheese"

"I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath." - Lysa

Maybe its because ive read aGoT years ago while i read the rest a year ago, so i never had much else of an impression of him (i had completely forgotten about him when i finally picked up aCoK).

What characters do you have where your brain latched onto the worst possible defining quote?

22

So I am currently re-listening to A Storm of Swords when I came across this incredibly touching scene:

"Harwin?" Arya whispered. It was! Under the beard and the tangled hair was the face of Hullen's son, who used to lead her pony around the yard, ride at quintain with Jon and Robb, and drink too much on feast days. He was thinner, harder somehow, and at Winterfell he had never worn a beard, but it was him—her father's man. "Harwin!" Squirming, she threw herself forward, trying to wrench free of Lem's iron grip. "It's me," she shouted, "Harwin, it's me, don't you know me, don't you?" The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. "Harwin, it's me!"
Harwin's eyes went from her face to the flayed man on her doublet. "How do you know me?" he said, frowning suspiciously. "The flayed man . . . who are you, some serving boy to Lord Leech?"
For a moment she did not know how to answer. She'd had so many names. Had she only dreamed Arya Stark? "I'm a girl," she sniffed. "I was Lord Bolton's cupbearer but he was going to leave me for the goat, so I ran off with Gendry and Hot Pie. You have to know me! You used to lead my pony, when I was little."
His eyes went wide, "Gods be good," he said in a choked voice. "Arya Underfoot? Lem, let go of her."
"She broke my nose." Lem dumped her unceremoniously to the floor. "Who in seven hells is she supposed to be?"
"The Hand's daughter." Harwin went to one knee before her. "Arya Stark, of Winterfell." (Arya II, ASOS)

Hearing this passage again after so long honestly gave me chills. I remember first reading this, years back, and feeling so happy for Arya. After all she had been through, King's Landing and Ser Amory's men, the Mountain's men and Harrenhall... finally she had found someone she knew she could trust. Finally she could be Arya again!

In the end Harwin unfortunately turned out to be a lot less helpful in returning Arya back to her family than I initially had hoped. But still, to witness this glimmer of hope in her otherwise very dark storyline still makes me somewhat happy. Hopefully someday we will see Arya finally reuinte with her family again.

22
7

Imagine ASOIAF is over and Martin says since it won't ruin the plot anymore he'll release of a book full of PoVs from any character the fans decide. The PoV has to start sometime during the main series.

Say what PoV you'd like and what chapter in particular you'd like to read about! After a day I'll put at the top of the post the couple characters that were wished for most.

548
Posted by
Fuck the king.
1 day ago

In my rereads I've noticed that GRRM does a great job giving characters distinct voices that match their personalities. The Lannister twins, for example, tend to speak in sharp, pointed sentences, with the subject toward the front and their feeling on the subject following. Something like: "The Starks, how I despise them," is exactly the sort of thing we would expect to hear Cercei say, and not just because she hates Starks.

Along with his famous quips, Tyrion tends to refer to himself by his full name. "Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm." "He had been at it all night, but that was nothing new. Tyrion Lannister was not much a one for sleeping."

Catelyn gives long, sprawling descriptions of the sky and the sea and the rolling hillsides before her . . . Sansa goes on and on about how pretty things are, and Bran tends to focus on strong action verbs, probably due to his lack of ability in preforming those actions.

These are just a few that I've found, but I'm sure there are others. I'm really interested in discussing this sort of thing, so if you've noticed any characteristic 'quirks' please share them here.

Hopefully it's as interesting to you as it is to me.

548
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